General/Other - Quan Chi The Best Way to Balance Quan Chi (All Variations)

[ienjoywinning]

2bats?

Yes please give us more buffs lord

 

[Goat-City]

we're never really looking for anything in specific or if we did it would be asked somewhere. I personally generally values everyone's opinion equally on most things and read through all kinds of threads and thoughts on things. Don't need anyone yelling 'look at me' for special attention.

Either way there is a ton of random speculation on this particular thread based about rumors, misinformed third hand information, or someone imagination.

ps would you actually think a game update comes out without random quanchi buffs???

Ok this is great information to have. I think if more people were confident that their voices were being heard then there wouldn't be any begging for anyone's attention. Just you saying that you read through threads all the time is very helpful.

It's good to know the rumored nerfs at least aren't entirely true. I would've made this thread even without those rumors, but I had to talk a bit about them and why they're wrong. If Quan Chi buffs are coming then I hope the ones I mentioned in the OP are included, especially the ones for Warlock because portal stab just doesn't function like it should.

 

[ienjoywinning]

I think reverting summoner to pre patch state will keep him balanced except he keeps his 6f d1and maybe less + frames in ex rune? Pre patch he had no bat combos pretty much he was all about zoning ( bat had no cooldown) i really wish something like this is implemented

 

[Goat-City]

I think reverting summoner to pre patch state will keep him balanced except he keeps his 6f d1and maybe less + frames in ex rune? Pre patch he had no bat combos pretty much he was all about zoning ( bat had no cooldown) i really wish something like this is implemented

I really like what they did to Summoner in the patch, especially the launching b2. He's more fun and his main strength should be his combos off projectiles, not his armor breaking hard to blockables. If he takes the changes and nerfs I listed in the OP he should be perfectly balanced. Also he should not lose any plus frames on EX rune, the least I'd be ok with is +12 as long as his s1 is fixed, but that would change nothing.

 

[Gustavness]

I read this thread.

These buffs are crazy. making B+2 a mid but F1 into a hit confirmable overhead string is an enormous buff

There is nothing wrong with the meter drain spell. You can combo into it off of normal trance, and in the corner for 1 bar do 42% and burn more than a bar of the opponents meter. making it so plus that you can do crossups is crazy.

The idea of being able to cancel an existing portal into another portal is crazy. this would wreak havoc in the corner

Summoner is broken, everyone knows it. Give it the same treatment that the puggles command grab has. he throws it out, he cant do normals, and vice versa. he retains his zoning and cant vortex to death up close. Also, bring back auto-block off of skull. why in gods name was this removed, and only for summoner.

make MB rune +11 so that Sorcerer can still use the chip setup, but you can no longer get guaranteed mixups from low/overhead

There you go. NRS, pay me already

 

[Goat-City]

I read this thread.

These buffs are crazy. making B+2 a mid but F1 into a hit confirmable overhead string is an enormous buff

There is nothing wrong with the meter drain spell. You can combo into it off of normal trance, and in the corner for 1 bar do 42% and burn more than a bar of the opponents meter. making it so plus that you can do crossups is crazy.

The idea of being able to cancel an existing portal into another portal is crazy. this would wreak havoc in the corner

Summoner is broken, everyone knows it. Give it the same treatment that the puggles command grab has. he throws it out, he cant do normals, and vice versa. he retains his zoning and cant vortex to death up close. Also, bring back auto-block off of skull. why in gods name was this removed, and only for summoner.

make MB rune +11 so that Sorcerer can still use the chip setup, but you can no longer get guaranteed mixups from low/overhead

There you go. NRS, pay me already

Making the EX rune only +11 would make it unnecessarily difficult to jail with a 9 frame jab consistently, especially when it whiffs on some crouch blocking characters without run canceling first, and with reversal option selects being in the game that would be a major problem for Sorcerer. So the only good way to remove the ability to overhead or low into EX rune and then be able overhead or low into EX rune again would be to make f1 the new overhead starter since there's a gap between f1 into rune, f14 into rune, and b3 into rune, so they could always armor through it.

To get to your point about being able to hit confirm it, you would, but only at the cost of not being to do the overhead into EX rune on block, so once the opponent blocks the overhead or low starter, the EX rune would no longer be an option as long as they have a bar of meter, so you would be at least minus 10 guaranteed after a blocked mix up with no option to mix them up again for a bar. This is what I was trying to tell God Confirm, so I don't see how it could be seen as a buff, and definitely not a huge buff. It's a big buff at the cost of a big nerf. And all that's on top of the fact that overhead into trance would no longer be possible on hit or block. However, if they still thought it would be overpowered then they could remove all cancel advantage from f14 as well. I'd much rather have that than to continue to have b2 as the overhead starter.

Your idea about fixing Summoner's hard to blockables is exactly one of the ones I gave. I don't like the idea of bringing back auto block on the skull; I like the added benefit to his zoning with it, which is what the variation should be about mostly. I'd rather have him take a 4% damage nerf instead so it would balance both Sorcerer and Summoner.

You can't consistently combo off the meter drain spell during trance, the timing is impractically tight. There's no reason to use it in the corner over the chip damage spell or the armor spell, they're just better. Any use it would have would be extremely situational, if it would even have one. Making it much faster to get a guaranteed use out of it after a trance would be the only way to make it useful. Being able to cancel the spells into the meter spell or vice versa would make very little difference either and I explained why in my other thread. The only buff it would bring is that you would no longer have to time combos in the armor spell to be able to activate another spell during trance, which is a dumb design anyway that you have to arbitrarily time a combo to get something else. And you wouldn't be able to go armor spell into chip spell or chip to armor, so what's the big deal?

 

[Gustavness]

You can't consistently combo off the meter drain spell into trance, the timing is impractically tight. There's no reason to use it in the corner over the chip damage spell or the armor spell, they're just better. Any use it would have would be extremely situation, if it would even have one. Making it much faster to get a guaranteed use out of it after a trance would be the only way to make it useful. Being able to cancel the spells into the meter spell or vice versa would make very little difference either and I explained why in my other thread. The only buff it would bring is that you would no longer have to time combos in the armor spell to be able to activate another spell during trance, which is a dumb design anyway that you have to arbitrarily time a combo to get something else. And you wouldn't be able to go armor spell into chip spell or chip to armor, so what's the big deal?

I'm not going to discuss the rest of these points because honestly, minor changes in normals could vastly change how he's played. However, I want to talk about meter drain

Is it the best? absolutely not. it has minimal, if not, no use. Thats not the spells fault, thats the chip portal and armor just being that damn good.

Speed it up? makes no difference, you'd still use the other two. however, being able to juggle back and forth between the two would be too strong. for 1 bar, you can ALWAYS take 1 bar from the opponent as well. So with armor down you fish for a hit, you land something and combo into trance, swap to meter drain, finish your combo for 40%+, take a bar from them, end in 141 and back to armor.

Dont get me wrong, it would be great to have it sped up. but just because the execution of landing it mid-combo with a normal trance is somewhat difficult (about a 5-6 frame window) doesnt mean they should make it overpowered. In my opinion you slightly increase how much it drains, drains 1/3 on block. Add a trance brutality if you land a trance while in the drain portal while you're at it

 

[Xerclipse]

I have a feeling NRS has planned for Quan Chi Summoner to be that super overhead and low character Your suggestions say don't make him be able to throw in overhead attacks while the low bat does its own thing. Mortal Kombat X has really over relied on overhead and lows to make a character good.

I mostly played Warlock and his portal stab really needs a buff. There is no use pulling that out in neutral. His wake up attack gets too predictable as well. I do agree that most of his other attacks which you talked about need to have more use. Otherwise its just throw away normals to give him some diversity. But what's the point of that if he has b2 (which is really good)

 

[Goat-City]

I'm not going to discuss the rest of these points because honestly, minor changes in normals could vastly change how he's played. However, I want to talk about meter drain

Is it the best? absolutely not. it has minimal, if not, no use. Thats not the spells fault, thats the chip portal and armor just being that damn good.

Speed it up? makes no difference, you'd still use the other two. however, being able to juggle back and forth between the two would be too strong. for 1 bar, you can ALWAYS take 1 bar from the opponent as well. So with armor down you fish for a hit, you land something and combo into trance, swap to meter drain, finish your combo for 40%+, take a bar from them, end in 141 and back to armor.

Dont get me wrong, it would be great to have it sped up. but just because the execution of landing it mid-combo with a normal trance is somewhat difficult (about a 5-6 frame window) doesnt mean they should make it overpowered. In my opinion you slightly increase how much it drains, drains 1/3 on block. Add a trance brutality if you land a trance while in the drain portal while you're at it

For your first point I'm not worried about that at all, there's no way anything major could change about him from these. All the changes that would happen I already listed. I can't imagine any more than those.

Speeding it up would make a big difference. You could do f2122, b2 trance, meter spell, crossover punch, b321, micro run 21 mid rune into EX rune into far rune, and cancel back into the armor spell with the cancel change. All of that midscreen. You spend a bar to take half of their bar with the added damage from the runes and an almost safe armor set up. It still costs a bar so it's very balanced. If it does not become cancelable and comboable it'll still be not worth the risk to use in the neutral or after a knockdown instead of the armor spell, so still useless. Even if it drained meter on block, which I don't like the idea of regardless, that leaves you so unsafe compared to the armor spell it'd still be useless.

What you're saying he could do in the corner is true, but it still costs meter. Meter that could be used for a lot of things including the rune trap, and the other player wouldn't be able use their armor in the corner anyways, so you're just removing their ability to break for the most part. There's no way it would be overpowered especially in the context of a 4% damage nerf and the removal of mix ups into EX rune on block and no overhead into trance.

I actually had a brutality idea with EX trance in the armor spell from full screen where they'd melt into a green skeleton, except they would keep walking for a few seconds and then fall at Quan's feet. Your idea's good too though lol.

 

[Gustavness]

Speeding it up would make a big difference. You could do f2122, b2 trance, meter spell, crossover punch, b321, micro run 21 mid rune into EX rune into far rune, and cancel back into the armor spell with the cancel change. All of that midscreen. You spend a bar to take half of their bar with the added damage from the runes and an almost safe armor set up. It still costs a bar so it's very balanced. If it does not become cancelable and comboable it'll still be not worth the risk to use in the neutral or after a knockdown instead of the armor spell, so still useless. Even if it drained meter on block, which I don't like the idea of regardless, that leaves you so unsafe compared to the armor spell it'd still be useless.

What you're saying he could do in the corner is true, but it still costs meter. Meter that could be used for a lot of things including the rune trap, and the other player wouldn't be able use their armor in the corner anyways, so you're just removing their ability to break for the most part.

First, look at this combo.

Now, this combo isnt even optimized. look at the dmg, meter used and meter taken. If you speed this spell up and allow it to be special cancellable into other portals and vice versa, he will be broken. This is only 1 bar for 42%.

You cant in one paragraph argue that it costs meter, and then in the paragraph before post a combo that uses the exact same bar of meter as your ideal setup. especially since probably every Sorcerer player uses MB rune mid combo in the exact same way i'm describing.

This can be done midscreen just harder and slightly less damage. off of a NJP i can get an extra air skull as well, for a bar and a half. Dont get me wrong, i would be totally ok if they made the type of changes you're asking for, believe me. I just want you to know it would be broken as shit lol.

Just offering my opinion as a different perspective.

 

[ienjoywinning]

First, look at this combo.

Now, this combo isnt even optimized. look at the dmg, meter used and meter taken. If you speed this spell up and allow it to be special cancellable into other portals and vice versa, he will be broken. This is only 1 bar for 42%.

You cant in one paragraph argue that it costs meter, and then in the paragraph before post a combo that uses the exact same bar of meter as your ideal setup. especially since probably every Sorcerer player uses MB rune mid combo in the exact same way i'm describing.

This can be done midscreen just harder and slightly less damage. off of a NJP i can get an extra air skull as well, for a bar and a half. Dont get me wrong, i would be totally ok if they made the type of changes you're asking for, believe me. I just want you to know it would be broken as shit lol.

I'm not going to post again about it, just offering my opinion as a different perspective.

Thats sick.

 

[Goat-City]

First, look at this combo.

Now, this combo isnt even optimized. look at the dmg, meter used and meter taken. If you speed this spell up and allow it to be special cancellable into other portals and vice versa, he will be broken. This is only 1 bar for 42%.

You cant in one paragraph argue that it costs meter, and then in the paragraph before post a combo that uses the exact same bar of meter as your ideal setup. especially since probably every Sorcerer player uses MB rune mid combo in the exact same way i'm describing.

This can be done midscreen just harder and slightly less damage. off of a NJP i can get an extra air skull as well, for a bar and a half. Dont get me wrong, i would be totally ok if they made the type of changes you're asking for, believe me. I just want you to know it would be broken as shit lol.

I'm not going to post again about it, just offering my opinion as a different perspective.

You just spent a bar to get the same damage you can get meterless to take away a bar of theirs AND be stuck without an armor spell afterwards. That was completely worthless compared to just doing a meterless bnb into an armor spell setup. If it was faster and could be canceled afterwards it would not be any better than the applications for the other 2 spells. You wouldn't have to sacrifice damage or the unsafeness of no armor spell. It would not be a better application of meter than the rune trap or armored EX trances, it would just be an equally viable use of it to use in different situations.

Even if they needed to increase the recovery of air skulls close to the ground to make the meter spell faster and cancelable then I would much prefer that. Also, I'd even be willing to accept a nerf to the armor spell for this, so it would not grant a hit of armor in the air, only when you're standing in it. They could do this with the meter spell too so those ia skulls wouldn't drain meter. To summarize, I don't think it would be broken, but if it was then the solutions I gave for balancing it would definitely work.

 

[Gustavness]

You just sucked me in to this, didnt you?

So, to summarize, now you want to;
1. Nerf armor spell when airborne
2. Nerf Air skull recovery
3. Nerf the drain portal (before you've even buffed it) so that it doesnt do what its designed to do...which is drain meter on an air skull

Like i said, if they implement your recommendations im all for it. But you just seem to have 1 specific idea in your head of what you want this spell to be and refuse to look at from outside of what you think this spell is.

Does it need to be changed? yes, as of now it will never be used, and thats not because the spell isnt good currently. its just that the other two options are flat out better. But buff it in the manner you're thinking?

 

[Goat-City]

You just sucked me in to this, didnt you?

So, to summarize, now you want to;
1. Nerf armor spell when airborne
2. Nerf Air skull recovery
3. Nerf the drain portal (before you've even buffed it) so that it doesnt do what its designed to do...which is drain meter on an air skull

Like i said, if they implement your recommendations im all for it. But you just seem to have 1 specific idea in your head of what you want this spell to be and refuse to look at from outside of what you think this spell is.

Does it need to be changed? yes, as of now it will never be used, and thats not because the spell isnt good currently. its just that the other two options are flat out better. But buff it in the manner you're thinking?

No, I don't want any of that necessarily. I'm saying if it turned out to be broken, then those would be the nerfs to balance it. I do have this specific design choice in mind for many reasons, but I don't see how an equally useful application of meter to the rune trap would be broken. It would just be a different, yet equally viable option. So you could use 2 bars of meter in the corner for a 45-50% combo and drain 2 bars of meter from your opponent, or you could use 2 bars for a 70-75% chip damage combo with meter gain on block. If you wouldn't argue the chip damage spell is broken, then how could you argue the meter drain spell would be broken with these buffs? It would just be equal to the other 2.

Besides, what's most important to me are the general changes and nerfs to Quan I suggested, not the Sorcerer or Warlock buffs even though they're important too.

 

[Aramonde]

Either way there is a ton of random speculation on this particular thread based about rumors, misinformed third hand information, or someone imagination.

-So what your saying is these ESL Quan nerfs are Bullshit? Praise be Quan! Just don't listen to these "omg Quan is broken!" People because he's not. He's a good boy that dinndu nuffin

It's also cool/concering to know you guys actually read this forum.

 

[omooba]

Well, considering he's the one who controls what changes are made to characters, I think he's allowed to be.

Or, it could be that he gets tagged a lot for useless shit. Who wants to log into TYM and see eleventy-billion notifications that are all basically the same thing?

not like he's the only one that gets tagged like crazy. damn near everyother nerf/buff thread has 16bit in it but never seen him be a douche about

 

[Eldriken]

not like he's the only one that gets tagged like crazy. damn near everyother nerf/buff thread has 16bit in it but never seen him be a douche about

That's because 16 Bit isn't Colt. Different reactions from different people.

 

[omooba]

That's because 16 Bit isn't Colt. Different reactions from different people.

exactly my point some people are chill and some people are douche bags thats just how life is

 

[Goat-City]

I thought of an alternative method to balancing him that I wouldn't mind too much. If NRS is insistent on making the EX rune less plus on block, then here's the second best way to balance Quan Chi in my opinion.

I still think he should take the damage nerfs I listed in the OP and f4 should still be made a staggerable overhead, (and also f4d4 should be safe on block; I forgot to mention that in the OP) but f1 should not be made the new overhead starter. Instead, the EX rune should only be +7 on block, no more or less. That way it would be impossible to jail with any of Quan's highs. You could still jail with b3, d3, or d1 but there would be a gap after the EX rune no matter what normal you use except for d1. F1 would still be useful this way because it could only be interrupted by a frame perfect 6 frame move since it's a 13 frame mid. Aside from that, everything I said in the OP stays the same.

Also, since the beta is out now I'll give my thoughts on what should stay from it and what should go. The delayed MB rune needs to go. It makes trying to block after rune annoyingly difficult and dangerous, there would be no point to it if the regular EX rune is only +7, and it just looks and plays terrible on top of that.

I like the idea to decrease the hit advantage on trance just to nerf Summoner's damage and Sorcerer's corner carry, but it's way too much. With only 46 frames of hit advantage it's ridiculously hard to crossover punch after trance and we need to be able to do that, so instead make it plus 70 on hit instead of plus 80 like it is in the current full game. That way Sorcerer loses a lot of corner carry, you still would have to use the EX trance to set the rune trap up, and Summoner loses 2% more damage on his combos, making it a total of a 6% damage nerf.

As for the buff to sky drop, it's still a terrible wakeup so it's not a huge deal if it keeps the speed increase, but I still don't think it should be so fast considering how overpowered Summoner and Sorcerer would be with my suggestions if they had a wakeup that was even just somewhat respectable. I'd say make it several frames slower but give it better air priority so it doesn't get beat by jump attacks. Either way it's not a big deal though.

The changes to Sorcerer's spells are perfect as far as I can tell without a practice mode, they need to stay this way. I still think you should be able to cancel them with each other for a bunch of reasons, but the way they are in the beta is great nevertheless.

All that being said, I still much prefer my original ideas of making f1 the new overhead starter and leaving the EX rune at +14, but I'd be content if NRS took this route to balancing him too. However, if they decided to make the EX rune only +7, then I think pretty much every character in the game should lose plus frames on their plus on block specials just like Kung Lao's EX orbital hat so they get very little guaranteed off them or nothing. Shinnok's MB hell sparks should only be +7, DF Liu Kang's f213 fireball cancel should only be +7 or less, SQ Dvorah should only be +7 or less on her cancels and so on. If you're going to nerf Quan's plus frames then it should be consistent with other top tier characters' plus frames since they need to be nerfed too.

@Under_The_Mayo @God Confirm What do you guys think?