coolwhip
Noob
What are Sub's 3-7 match-ups?Even SZ players dont understand his own limitations. If you SZ mains are ok losing several match ups 3-7 like the old days then I dont think you know what you are sayng.
What are Sub's 3-7 match-ups?Even SZ players dont understand his own limitations. If you SZ mains are ok losing several match ups 3-7 like the old days then I dont think you know what you are sayng.
It's hard to argue with that logic. Dizzy has a point here.One thing I don't understand for this argument is the fact that b12 is safe vs all the cast except two characters and f42 is already safe against most of the cast.
Even the characters that can punish -7 moves, it's a just frame punish, in which you have to let go of block immediately. If you DO cancel into clone, ex clone, they will contact the clone and get frozen when attempting the just frame punish with their 6f normal. The only characters I know of that punishes both F42 and F42 into clone with the same move is tempest KL EX spin and reptile EX slide.
B12 itself is safe against everything except cassie reversal flipkick and reptile ex slide.
Given the safety of the strings themselves, I don't see why he could possibly *need* the ability to cancel into clone and then also be significantly more safe than that (and prevent many chars from hoping to even retaliate until the subzero makes an error)
The clone doesnt work right. I already proved it has very bad collision. Clone needs better collision or they need to bring it back on block. If both of those are off the table then he needs to be a bit safer.One thing I don't understand for this argument is the fact that b12 is safe vs all the cast except two characters and f42 is already safe against most of the cast.
Even the characters that can punish -7 moves, it's a just frame punish, in which you have to let go of block immediately. If you DO cancel into clone, ex clone, they will contact the clone and get frozen when attempting the just frame punish with their 6f normal. The only characters I know of that punishes both F42 and F42 into clone with the same move is tempest KL EX spin and reptile EX slide.
B12 itself is safe against everything except cassie reversal flipkick and reptile ex slide.
Given the safety of the strings themselves, I don't see why he could possibly *need* the ability to cancel into clone and then also be significantly more safe than that (and prevent many chars from hoping to even retaliate until the subzero makes an error)
That post was a little hyperbolic I admit. Even if it's somewhat situational and not 100% safe it doesn't mean you can't implement it into your corner game. You take a risk, you get 40-50%. As long as you read your opponent it's a viable way to get damage. The 24 shatter combos are consistent against female characters as well if you practice the timing.I think you're a bit misinformed here, it isn't some godlike tool that sub players aren't taking advantage of for no reason.
Say what you want about me Salt Shaker, but I never let personal bias cloud my point of view on balancing this game. SZ may be my character, but I'm not onboard for just handing out buffs without good reason. Just like how I feel about KanoMaybe there's hope for you yet.
Exactly.His footsie+mixup game is strong enough that maybe he doesn't need the option of ice clone with everything. Maybe he's not supposed to play exactly like mk9 sub. And considering these strings are safe by themselves and don't need to be canceled I don't see what the big problem is.
That video makes me lol every single time.If subzero gets fixed you guys will all see how much of toms problems WERE HIS CHARACTERRRR AND HOW MUCH WAS TOMMM CUZ HE IS COMING TO FUCK SHIT UP
I came in to say this. I feel like theres options for everything right now. Just use em.And a lot of characters that punish clone on reaction can be baited using EN clone. Like if Quan does Trance or Ermac does Lift and you do an EN Clone, you can block in time and full combo punish.
Very rich Brady, you've excelled yourselfSTOP!! he's fine... he needs ZERO buffs.
"I don't want to be pressured so give me an option that makes players want to back off or be mixed up".
GET OUT OF HERE
is just awesome.hit confirm f42 into anything is punishable
C'mon son..... If we have absolutely no idea of how sub Zero works, can we just not comment?Grandmaster Sub has good footsie options, good corner carry, good jumpins, reasonable midscreen meterless damage, very high corner damage, good confirms, good option selects. On top of that he has what is basically a parry except it's faster than Kotal's, works against any ground or jump attack, gives a free combo, and on whiff even creates a wall that still freezes opponents if they touch its back. It can be used safely in pressure strings against many characters, give giant stage in control in many matchups, give giant corner control in most matchups, and make for very damaging corner combos. The ex version even has armor and is safe after strings. That's a lot of good stuff, folks.
I get that the clone doesn't always work how you want it to, but that doesn't mean it has to be changed so that it does. Maybe instead of using it after f42 etc you use it like a faster version of hellfire Scorp's flame aura and bait/punish in footsies and antiairs? The threat of clone is at least as strong as the presence of clone imo. Or maybe it's just a way to get big corner damage? Or maybe you use it in some matchups where it can be really dominant, but go with unbreakable or cryo in others? It really seems to me like there are other ways to use clone that should be tried before any changes are made to it.
I want the clone to work right which i clearly proved it doesn't in my vids about its collision. You cant have the clone cancels be so unsafe, clone go away on block, etc and still allow people to attack SZ right through the clone.Grandmaster Sub has good footsie options, good corner carry, good jumpins, reasonable midscreen meterless damage, very high corner damage, good confirms, good option selects. On top of that he has what is basically a parry except it's faster than Kotal's, works against any ground or jump attack, gives a free combo, and on whiff even creates a wall that still freezes opponents if they touch its back. It can be used safely in pressure strings against many characters, give giant stage in control in many matchups, give giant corner control in most matchups, and make for very damaging corner combos. The ex version even has armor and is safe after strings. That's a lot of good stuff, folks.
I get that the clone doesn't always work how you want it to, but that doesn't mean it has to be changed so that it does. Maybe instead of using it after f42 etc you use it like a faster version of hellfire Scorp's flame aura and bait/punish in footsies and antiairs? The threat of clone is at least as strong as the presence of clone imo. Or maybe it's just a way to get big corner damage? Or maybe you use it in some matchups where it can be really dominant, but go with unbreakable or cryo in others? It really seems to me like there are other ways to use clone that should be tried before any changes are made to it.