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Guide - Grandmaster Sub-Zero GRANDMASTER Guide

RM Ree

Shiba Tamer
Not at all. You're getting a fundamental grasp on the character for sure. The only reason I chimed in is because the character is capable of much more than the old guides let on, in all 3 variations. The combo thread made by @themilkman014 for instance has more damaging combo options. It's stickied so it's easy to find. Other threads expand on what SZ is capable of like parrying string gaps, or expanding on armor breaking, or even anti SZ strats.
 

ChaosTheory

A fat woman came into the shoe store today...
I tried B33,D4 to setup shatters and the distance is just shy of what is needed.
What do you mean? Are you saying do the NJK ender for Shatters because b3,3,d4 is just shy?

Cause I get the 49% overhead and 43% low (both ending in f1,2) by setting up with b3,3,d4.

Maybe I misunderstood.
 

crosshair271

Sub-Xerox
@crosshair271 I miss the njp on females often enough that I just don't go for it anymore.
I don't really have an issue with male or female. It connects all the same to me. Though I did notice NJ1 feels easier than NJ2.
It also feels like in recent patches the game is more responsive and not so delayed. Instant air attacks feel easier to me.
What do you mean? Are you saying do the NJK ender for Shatters because b3,3,d4 is just shy?
Cause I get the 49% overhead and 43% low (both ending in f1,2) by setting up with b3,3,d4.
Maybe I misunderstood.
I did some testing and on males the B33,D4 works for shatter setups. Females it is harder to do because you are closer to them messing up the distance needed for the shatter. Because you're closer the shards hit earlier making the followup harder to do. Unless there is a combo I don't know about. I always cancel B33,D4 into Klone early for the most advantage.
Example of mine. B2, B2, 1, 1, B12xxKlone, dash forward, NJP, BJ1, B33, D4xxKlone.
 

DT Tundra

Steam Name:Tundra_Arctos Twitter: @tundraarctos
So I am of the opinion that Boneshaper Shinnok and Vicious Ferra/Torr are our two worst matchups, what do you guys think?
 

RM Ree

Shiba Tamer
I personally don't have much experience vs. F/T, but I think Imposter Shinnok is worse than Bone Shaper.
 

I GOT HANDS

Official Infrared Scorp wid gapless Wi-Fi pressure
So I am of the opinion that Boneshaper Shinnok and Vicious Ferra/Torr are our two worst matchups, what do you guys think?
No way are either of them worse than QC, whose strengths are basically multiplied by the nature of Sub-Zero, aside from naturally being equipped to go right through Clone, and also happens to be the #1 character to begin with
 

Dankster Morgan

It is better this way
No way are either of them worse than QC, whose strengths are basically multiplied by the nature of Sub-Zero, aside from naturally being equipped to go right through Clone, and also happens to be the #1 character to begin with
I don't see the matchup being worse than 6-4 in favor of Quan. Quan is extremely powerful, but he doesn't have armor , a wakeup option, or good defense. All of which you need when cornered. But mid-full screen Quan has a clear advantage. I think the stage could have a lot to do with this matchup.
 

zoofs

bless
Worst mu's are probably dvorah, aftershock tremor, shinnok (bs but maybe others), hish qu ten and the rest are probably 6-4 depending on what char we're talking about
 

I GOT HANDS

Official Infrared Scorp wid gapless Wi-Fi pressure
Even Shujinkydink, the biggest Quan downplayer on the site, admitted and described the match up as one of QC's best ones

You don't need armour to get out of the corner

You just need to block the 50/50




Quan wrecks this match up super hard
 

DT Tundra

Steam Name:Tundra_Arctos Twitter: @tundraarctos
Worst mu's are probably dvorah, aftershock tremor, shinnok (bs but maybe others), hish qu ten and the rest are probably 6-4 depending on what char we're talking about
Maybe its just me, but i feel like the Ferra/Torr Matchup is at least on the boarder of becoming 7-3, i just dont understand our options here. our b2 gets beat by the NJP ,our clone gets beat by just about everything, we dont have sufficent pressure without the clone, and our projectile is to slow to zone them out.

Even Shujinkydink, the biggest Quan downplayer on the site, admitted and described the match up as one of QC's best ones

You don't need armour to get out of the corner

You just need to block the 50/50




Quan wrecks this match up super hard
Do you have a link on that, I believe quan wins the matchup,but someone who I do locals with thinks its at least 5-5. I would love to see what dink said on it.
 

Dankster Morgan

It is better this way
Even Shujinkydink, the biggest Quan downplayer on the site, admitted and described the match up as one of QC's best ones

You don't need armour to get out of the corner

You just need to block the 50/50




Quan wrecks this match up super hard
Can you explain some of those advantages. I'm not trying to argue and have no problem admitting if I'm wrong I genuinely want to know :)
 

Dankster Morgan

It is better this way
Maybe its just me, but i feel like the Ferra/Torr Matchup is at least on the boarder of becoming 7-3, i just dont understand our options here. our b2 gets beat by the NJP ,our clone gets beat by just about everything, we dont have sufficent pressure without the clone, and our projectile is to slow to zone them out.
I think its closer than that but vicious really gives us a hard time. We can stomp lackey, I dont know about ruthless. I just think patience is key, and make them fear the slide, and sub has a really good d4 once we get in range of it.
 

RM Ree

Shiba Tamer
I don't see the matchup being worse than 6-4 in favor of Quan. Quan is extremely powerful, but he doesn't have armor , a wakeup option, or good defense. All of which you need when cornered. But mid-full screen Quan has a clear advantage. I think the stage could have a lot to do with this matchup.
The three weaknesses you gave are all the same thing... How does one not connect "armor" to 'defense?" And let's be real, you use armor on "wake up." There's an adage that states the best defense is a good offense and no one would disagree with the fact that Quan's offense is -ahem- "good." And the last time I checked, his block button is the same as everyone else's. Let's not forget about his ridiculously fast and safe 6f poke either. In multiple variations, Quan sees top 8 regularly, and it's because his worst match ups are still in his favor. No other character in the game does this with such alarming regularity.

In Summoner, he boasts repeated same frame OH/ low mix ups, doing roughly 5 repetitions to kill, and the only way out of this is to send him full screen with a breaker where he excels as one of the best zoning characters in the game. Zoning illustrated most clearly by his ~50% unbreakable combo that starts from zoning. Not only that, but if he decides to do so, he can use his zoning to perform the pseudo unblockable for just 1 bar with the crazy block advantage ex rune has. This requires minimal setup in summoning a bat, and can be accomplished on either block or hit.

In Sorcerer, he has the ability to set up the scariest corner game MKX has seen yet using his armor spell where he can safely mix up time and time again without meter. If for some reason Quan decides not to set up this armor spell in the corner, he can simply do it mid screen (off either a BnB or a MB rune hit) and zone like a monster yet again. Hell, if he wants to, off of any successful mix up Quan can deal an "inescapable" 60% using his hex, dealing massive chip damage and putting himself safely mid screen again. If anyone wondered about the reason block breakers were in the game, Quan is a front runner. How do you stop him? Spend 2 bars and more stamina than you can afford on hit (OR block now) to send the best zoning character out there full screen.

"Extremely powerful" is putting it lightly. Kitana's showed a 90% combo on him, manipulating his own armor spell against him in a dream scenario. And the community unanimously regarded that as "fair." For the entire community to agree that a near kill combo, on anything for that matter, is fair should speak volumes about how unbalanced Quan is right now. The only way Quan gets beat is if an opponent severely outplays the Quan Chi, and makes 0 mistakes. I'm not campaigning for nerfs. The community may discover new tech that blows these match ups wide open. Even now, Cryomancer SZ can deal huge amounts of damage to Sorcerer Quan. But c'mon, call it what it is. This characters risk/ reward is out of control and he's going to be adjusted. For the record, I like his design, but the loopable "unblockable" and insane damage need to be looked at.
 
Maybe its just me, but i feel like the Ferra/Torr Matchup is at least on the boarder of becoming 7-3, i just dont understand our options here. our b2 gets beat by the NJP ,our clone gets beat by just about everything, we dont have sufficent pressure without the clone, and our projectile is to slow to zone them out.


Do you have a link on that, I believe quan wins the matchup,but someone who I do locals with thinks its at least 5-5. I would love to see what dink said on it.
Tom had a match against a FT player not too long ago and his strategy revolved around clone toss for advantage. He won the set so I do believe theres some merit to his strat on that match up. I cant really speak from experience since no one i know plays FT. Anyone know which tourney it was and the stream link?
 

DT Tundra

Steam Name:Tundra_Arctos Twitter: @tundraarctos
Tom had a match against a FT player not too long ago and his strategy revolved around clone toss for advantage. He won the set so I do believe theres some merit to his strat on that match up. I cant really speak from experience since no one i know plays FT. Anyone know which tourney it was and the stream link?
The thing is using clone toss is a risk considering when we even form a clone we can get punished by ferra toss or the one where Torr sends her low.If he send her low, if we try to slide in we eat it. I would like to see this match, because while it is not unwinnable, i wouldn't be surprised to see the Ferra/Torr just getting straight outplayed.
 

RM Ree

Shiba Tamer
There's an odd moment where after F/T is knocked down, Ferra takes time to re-mount Torr. This makes forming a clone after a knockdown safe as F/T cannot wake up with a toss. If clone toss trades with Ferra toss, we get more damage and the knock down to reset the same situation.

Beyond that, Sub controls the neutral for the most part. F/T's wake up game isn't great vs. corner clone either as you can fearlessly punish most of it with armor shreds. Pressure hard, corner carry and bait the NJP (respond with slide to low profile/ punish).

Personally I don't think this is a terrible MU. The NJP simply commands respect, but once they're afraid to use it SZ gains a lot of breathing room.
 

DT Tundra

Steam Name:Tundra_Arctos Twitter: @tundraarctos
There's an odd moment where after F/T is knocked down, Ferra takes time to re-mount Torr. This makes forming a clone after a knockdown safe as F/T cannot wake up with a toss. If clone toss trades with Ferra toss, we get more damage and the knock down to reset the same situation.

Beyond that, Sub controls the neutral for the most part. F/T's wake up game isn't great vs. corner clone either as you can fearlessly punish most of it with armor shreds. Pressure hard, corner carry and bait the NJP (respond with slide to low profile/ punish).

Personally I don't think this is a terrible MU. The NJP simply commands respect, but once they're afraid to use it SZ gains a lot of breathing room.
Isn't using slide against the NJP super risky since if you dont catch them almost immediately after they jump you will take the hit?
 

RM Ree

Shiba Tamer
Isn't using slide against the NJP super risky since if you dont catch them almost immediately after they jump you will take the hit?
You're looking to catch them on the way down whether they throw it or not. It's a jump detturant more than it is specifically the NJP counter, but every time F/T neutral jumps, they're probably going to use it. Sub has an odd trip guard ability with slide since (it feels like) the hit box is higher than the hurt box. It's pretty much a long range anti-air vs. a large F/T hurt box.
 

Dankster Morgan

It is better this way
The three weaknesses you gave are all the same thing... How does one not connect "armor" to 'defense?" And let's be real, you use armor on "wake up." There's an adage that states the best defense is a good offense and no one would disagree with the fact that Quan's offense is -ahem- "good." And the last time I checked, his block button is the same as everyone else's. Let's not forget about his ridiculously fast and safe 6f poke either. In multiple variations, Quan sees top 8 regularly, and it's because his worst match ups are still in his favor. No other character in the game does this with such alarming regularity.

In Summoner, he boasts repeated same frame OH/ low mix ups, doing roughly 5 repetitions to kill, and the only way out of this is to send him full screen with a breaker where he excels as one of the best zoning characters in the game. Zoning illustrated most clearly by his ~50% unbreakable combo that starts from zoning. Not only that, but if he decides to do so, he can use his zoning to perform the pseudo unblockable for just 1 bar with the crazy block advantage ex rune has. This requires minimal setup in summoning a bat, and can be accomplished on either block or hit.

In Sorcerer, he has the ability to set up the scariest corner game MKX has seen yet using his armor spell where he can safely mix up time and time again without meter. If for some reason Quan decides not to set up this armor spell in the corner, he can simply do it mid screen (off either a BnB or a MB rune hit) and zone like a monster yet again. Hell, if he wants to, off of any successful mix up Quan can deal an "inescapable" 60% using his hex, dealing massive chip damage and putting himself safely mid screen again. If anyone wondered about the reason block breakers were in the game, Quan is a front runner. How do you stop him? Spend 2 bars and more stamina than you can afford on hit (OR block now) to send the best zoning character out there full screen.

"Extremely powerful" is putting it lightly. Kitana's showed a 90% combo on him, manipulating his own armor spell against him in a dream scenario. And the community unanimously regarded that as "fair." For the entire community to agree that a near kill combo, on anything for that matter, is fair should speak volumes about how unbalanced Quan is right now. The only way Quan gets beat is if an opponent severely outplays the Quan Chi, and makes 0 mistakes. I'm not campaigning for nerfs. The community may discover new tech that blows these match ups wide open. Even now, Cryomancer SZ can deal huge amounts of damage to Sorcerer Quan. But c'mon, call it what it is. This characters risk/ reward is out of control and he's going to be adjusted. For the record, I like his design, but the loopable "unblockable" and insane damage need to be looked at.
Thanks for the explanation I appreciate it. Looking to pick up grandmaster.
 

I GOT HANDS

Official Infrared Scorp wid gapless Wi-Fi pressure
The three weaknesses you gave are all the same thing... How does one not connect "armor" to 'defense?" And let's be real, you use armor on "wake up." There's an adage that states the best defense is a good offense and no one would disagree with the fact that Quan's offense is -ahem- "good." And the last time I checked, his block button is the same as everyone else's. Let's not forget about his ridiculously fast and safe 6f poke either. In multiple variations, Quan sees top 8 regularly, and it's because his worst match ups are still in his favor. No other character in the game does this with such alarming regularity.

In Summoner, he boasts repeated same frame OH/ low mix ups, doing roughly 5 repetitions to kill, and the only way out of this is to send him full screen with a breaker where he excels as one of the best zoning characters in the game. Zoning illustrated most clearly by his ~50% unbreakable combo that starts from zoning. Not only that, but if he decides to do so, he can use his zoning to perform the pseudo unblockable for just 1 bar with the crazy block advantage ex rune has. This requires minimal setup in summoning a bat, and can be accomplished on either block or hit.

In Sorcerer, he has the ability to set up the scariest corner game MKX has seen yet using his armor spell where he can safely mix up time and time again without meter. If for some reason Quan decides not to set up this armor spell in the corner, he can simply do it mid screen (off either a BnB or a MB rune hit) and zone like a monster yet again. Hell, if he wants to, off of any successful mix up Quan can deal an "inescapable" 60% using his hex, dealing massive chip damage and putting himself safely mid screen again. If anyone wondered about the reason block breakers were in the game, Quan is a front runner. How do you stop him? Spend 2 bars and more stamina than you can afford on hit (OR block now) to send the best zoning character out there full screen.

"Extremely powerful" is putting it lightly. Kitana's showed a 90% combo on him, manipulating his own armor spell against him in a dream scenario. And the community unanimously regarded that as "fair." For the entire community to agree that a near kill combo, on anything for that matter, is fair should speak volumes about how unbalanced Quan is right now. The only way Quan gets beat is if an opponent severely outplays the Quan Chi, and makes 0 mistakes. I'm not campaigning for nerfs. The community may discover new tech that blows these match ups wide open. Even now, Cryomancer SZ can deal huge amounts of damage to Sorcerer Quan. But c'mon, call it what it is. This characters risk/ reward is out of control and he's going to be adjusted. For the record, I like his design, but the loopable "unblockable" and insane damage need to be looked at.
All very correct, and this is just the reasons why Quan is strong. Adding to this, and why it's such a bad match-up for Sub, is just due to the design of both heroes. Sub has to be up close (he's never going to beat QC at range, hes not even going to get a Clone toss off), yet Sub has no pressure, nothing plus on block, or even significant block strings. That means everytime he pressures a button, (and against a very safe character too), if it gets blocked he pretty much runs a 50/50 chance at losing the game. And I'm not even talking the vortex. Even if he goes for straight damage no reset it's still the highest damage output in the game. However, on the other side of the coin, Sub-Zero has one of the WEAKEST 50/50's in the game, doing 22% meterless off the over / or 27% off the low which requires an extremely important bar (you need to save meter in this match up more than absolutely any other). The Overhead, unlike Quan's, is reactable, or at the very least has an incredible backswing tell animation (making it probably the easiest 18f overhead I've found to recognise, I fuzzy it very often and this is from someone with such poor reactions that I often get caught by Kung Lao's F23 lol). Quan's overhead even with no delay is also safer, and can be delayed with some metagaming make it safe.

Now in the argument has made that if Sub gets Quan to the corner that Quan has no armour, Sub has a clone, and Sub's damage is much higher than usual. Sure but just remember, and it still trades for much less damage than Quan's overhead, and while you can punish Quan's overhead for about ~25% he can punish you for MUCH more. And that's forgetting that its even easier to block in a scenario where you know pretty much one of two things are coming. Now, the nature of Sub's corner pressure is that Quan may not be able to wake up armour through his mixup on a read, however he simply has to guess once on the 50/50, which he can even guess wrong MORE THAN ONCE and still have a 3rd chance to guess it (which is far more than Sub can say) and the +frames he gets from blocking the low guaranteed a MB Rune which assuming Sub blocks with a Clone up, is +16 on block and destroys the Clone, thus he's out of the corner everytime with a successful block, and does much more if unblocked., and if he blocks the overhead which is where the real corner reward is for Sub, well even better because he gets a meterless punish and puts Sub in the corner.

Add to all this the fact that Rune and Trance both go straight through the Clone, and that his other projectiles stopped by Clone can both be launched at once to circumvent this, and that his 6 frame D1 goes straight through the majority of the Clones hitbox and that Sub can do very little with -9 not even letting him connect a poke. Sub's best tool here is the regular Slide for getting through the zoning, MB is good too, but using meter like if you got it just on slide is very risky and situational. Either way, it's not enough to change this dreadful match-up for Sub. In my opinion anyone who thinks this is an even match up is either a downplaying QC main (who we'll ignore, because even the king of QC downplay had to admit Quan beats Sub-Zero EASILY), or they just need to play against better QC's or study the match up a bit harder. This is Subs worst match-up, no two ways about it.