Guide - Grandmaster Sub-Zero GRANDMASTER Guide

[M.D.]

Glad i'm not the one off topic.

 

[RM Ree]

@M.D. GM isn't as crazy as you make him out to be.

http://testyourmight.com/threads/list-of-all-b2-punishes.54355/

For general SZ knowledge...

- Out of the 29 Characters in this game, 27 of them can punish b2, which is -13f just for reference. 23 of them can punish it even when SZ is striking from behind a clone. The issue you're seeing with this move is ignorance on the opponents behalf. And it's hardly unreactable at 17f, there's much worse out there.
- Ex frost bomb is -10, and Johnny himself can punish a frost bomb wake up with his 9f stand 1 for a full combo (I'm doing it right now in the lab).
- As for clone, almost any character can punish a normal/ string > clone with the exception of the safe f4 xx clone (ex statue is a different story, but it costs a bar for merely the set up and has an increased cooldown on clone for the following combo). A good deal of the kast doesn't even need meter to do it. Also in the neutral, opponents can run > block into clone to destroy it, relatively crippling GM's neutral for a solid 5 seconds (pro tip, going from neutral to blocking safely extends your hurtbox. Stand block to crouch block extends it even further, making this strategy more consistent).

To be fair, b2 from max range is harder to punish. Ex frost bomb is one of the better armored moves in the game. Clone is difficult to deal with in a way unique to only GM. But the match-up knowledge will eventually become common knowledge. We're not trying to hide it from anyone, people just need to look for it. Grab it early if you're having issues and be set for the life of the game.

 

[M.D.]

I really appreciate all of you guys trying to help me level up each in his own way (i.e. telling me i suck, crybaby, gitgut etc, or explaining like you did) but that was not the point of the discussion.

I was generally speaking about GM's tools, and what I've seen in the biggest tourneys that get coverage on this site.
Punishing ex db1 with a 1 frame window might be possible, but the knockback makes it virtually safe in most of the cases because rarely you're point blank, so for example, Johnny's 1 doesn't reach. I have a Cryo sparring partner and rarely I'm able to be in range to punish him for his ex db1 (wether he does it in my gaps or on wakeup).

Again, I'm speaking from what I've seen in tourneys. I've also watched Tom on his stream doing a mirror set vs trap and while trap managed to punish b2 5 or 6 times, the rest of the b2s and ex db1s went unpunished. This also goes for the tourneys I watched (there was one with 3 subs in top 8 recently).

These are not punishes that you can see or do every time because you have to be on point with the 1-2 frame window, and consider the spacing because of pushback. I am feeling this in my own matches while suicidally commiting to 114 df2 with A-List on block and rarely getting punished because of the pushback (of course if you know it's coming you can duck it but that's not the point).

I've seen Tom's list of the b2 punishes, but to be honest I've never seen 90% of them done in actual matches. The clone cancels are not in discussion here, because most GM subs do empty clone when the spacing is right anyway.

The actual point was discussing the Quan matchup, as the people before me started, and I was saying it's not actually a bad matchup at all, because GM has all the tools he needs to fight the matchup without being hindered.

Yes, I admit my posts were hateful because I've seen so much Sub downplaying I'm automatically snapping at any post that implies Sub is weak ^^.

So, back on point, the actual question was, is the Quan matchup really that bad? It certainly doesn't seem like that to me.

 

[DT Tundra]

I really appreciate all of you guys trying to help me level up each in his own way (i.e. telling me i suck, crybaby, gitgut etc, or explaining like you did) but that was not the point of the discussion.

I was generally speaking about GM's tools, and what I've seen in the biggest tourneys that get coverage on this site.
Punishing ex db1 with a 1 frame window might be possible, but the knockback makes it virtually safe in most of the cases because rarely you're point blank, so for example, Johnny's 1 doesn't reach. I have a Cryo sparring partner and rarely I'm able to be in range to punish him for his ex db1 (wether he does it in my gaps or on wakeup).

Again, I'm speaking from what I've seen in tourneys. I've also watched Tom on his stream doing a mirror set vs trap and while trap managed to punish b2 5 or 6 times, the rest of the b2s and ex db1s went unpunished. This also goes for the tourneys I watched (there was one with 3 subs in top 8 recently).

These are not punishes that you can see or do every time because you have to be on point with the 1-2 frame window, and consider the spacing because of pushback. I am feeling this in my own matches while suicidally commiting to 114 df2 with A-List on block and rarely getting punished because of the pushback (of course if you know it's coming you can duck it but that's not the point).

I've seen Tom's list of the b2 punishes, but to be honest I've never seen 90% of them done in actual matches. The clone cancels are not in discussion here, because most GM subs do empty clone when the spacing is right anyway.

The actual point was discussing the Quan matchup, as the people before me started, and I was saying it's not actually a bad matchup at all, because GM has all the tools he needs to fight the matchup without being hindered.

Yes, I admit my posts were hateful because I've seen so much Sub downplaying I'm automatically snapping at any post that implies Sub is weak ^^.

So, back on point, the actual question was, is the Quan matchup really that bad? It certainly doesn't seem like that to me.

What do you personally do in the Quan matchup? You seem to have a decent grasp on it so i'm just curious.

 

[RVB]

So, back on point, the actual question was, is the Quan matchup really that bad? It certainly doesn't seem like that to me.

Talked to Ketchup one day about this, he feels it's close to a 5-5, I regard it as a 6-4 for Quan.
The numbers really don't matter, what's important is that this is one of the matchups where SZ needs to be patient and very mindful of Quan's zoning game.

 

[RM Ree]

This is probably more of a MU topic, but we don't have a sticky for that do we... GM vs. Quan Bats/ Armor/ Portals? What's his best variation vs. clone?

 

[RVB]

This is probably more of a MU topic, but we don't have a sticky for that do we... GM vs. Quan Bats/ Armor/ Portals? What's his best variation vs. clone?

All of Quan's variations perform ok vs GM SZ but I would give an edge to warlock, just cuz of the extra options he has to get out of pressure.

 

[RM Ree]

I did not expect that response. I feel like Quan only needs to touch SZ once in either Sorcerer and Summoner to win the match. Sorcerer for the armored zoning or corner pressure, Summoner for the loopable pseudo unblockable pressure.

Warlock though, I assume for the armor and portals to beat or even punish clones in the neutral and pressure. But do you think Quan needs more than rune, trance and that njp to beat ice clone pressure? Is having the portal really worth more than the bat and the armor spell?

 

[flappysamyhamy]

I have a few videos of me playing against two of the characters main representitives with Grandmaster. I'll post the links in a sec

Online sucks and I wasnt playing my best, but this should give an example how the MU can be played.

Vs. Shujinkydink Had bad start but ended up winning 10-2.. start around 51:00: http://www.twitch.tv/shujinkydink/v/17335910

Vs. Honeybee starts around 3 hour mark

Hope this helps

Hi

 

[RVB]

I did not expect that response. I feel like Quan only needs to touch SZ once in either Sorcerer and Summoner to win the match. Sorcerer for the armored zoning or corner pressure, Summoner for the loopable pseudo unblockable pressure.

Warlock though, I assume for the armor and portals to beat or even punish clones in the neutral and pressure. But do you think Quan needs more than rune, trance and that njp to beat ice clone pressure? Is having the portal really worth more than the bat and the armor spell?

Here's the way I see things, if you klone at the wrong time vs Quan Chi, it's like giving him the match on a silver plate because of the tools he has in every variation.
What I feel sets warlock apart is that if SZ plays a patient neutral and uses footsies to force Quan in the corner, then Sorcerer and Summoner are kinda screwed whereas Warlock has a way out of pressure.
Even with the offensive stuff that Quan has...opening up SZ is not that easy, hence the reason scrubs complain.

 

[M.D.]

From the high level matches posted above with top players playing GM vs Quan, there were a lot of times where the GM player cloned at the perfect space so he was between the mid and far rune, causing both to miss. I don't know if he was that good with spacing or only luck, but it happened a shit load of times during the set, which shows a chink in the armor.

In the corner, cloning properly leaves sub between close and mid rune, again, with both missing, but this time more consistent. At least that's how I saw it happening in the videos.

 

[ChaosTheory]

Here's the way I see things, if you klone at the wrong time vs Quan Chi, it's like giving him the match on a silver plate because of the tools he has in every variation.
What I feel sets warlock apart is that if SZ plays a patient neutral and uses footsies to force Quan in the corner, then Sorcerer and Summoner are kinda screwed whereas Warlock has a way out of pressure.
Even with the offensive stuff that Quan has...opening up SZ is not that easy, hence the reason scrubs complain.

This was my thinking off the top of my head... Warlock seems to be built to better deal with Clone. Portal Slam is obviously the reversal he lacks in the other two variations. And Portal Kick could be a quick punish for Clones in the mid-range, neutral game (like you mentioned, Sub working Quan to the corner patiently). Both should theoretically be reactive tools.

But then I thought what Ree was thinking. Quan is unbalanced in nature. I tend to think he might as well go all-in where he can land a single hit and Dim Mak your ass for free.

 

[ChaosTheory]

Speaking of reaction.... Is anybody applying this concept of blocking Sub-Zero's string and then recognizing whether or not the Clone came out before attempting to armor through it? I must've read something a while back before I was really playing that stuck with me... I thought that was supposed to be a thing.

But so far, from what I've seen of others and what I've experienced personally (albeit online), that's not really an issue. I feel like I only see people throw out armored reversals to block-strings like it's a read/guess. Is that the same for everyone else?

 

[RVB]

This was my thinking off the top of my head... Warlock seems to be built to better deal with Clone. Portal Slam is obviously the reversal he lacks in the other two variations. And Portal Kick could be a quick punish for Clones in the mid-range, neutral game (like you mentioned, Sub working Quan to the corner patiently). Both should theoretically be reactive tools.

But then I thought what Ree was thinking. Quan is unbalanced in nature. I tend to think he might as well go all-in where he can land a single hit and Dim Mak your ass for free.

Totally agree with that but being aggressive with Quan leaves plenty of room for mistakes and if there's one character that lives on punishing mistakes then that is SZ.
To sum it all up, I think the matchup is a slow race to the corner with a lot of mind games going on.

As for the klone cancel strings you can react properly to them by noticing the klone startup if you don't see any of that then try a meterless punish.
One must also keep in mind the lag and block stun when trying to go for something like that.

 

[darthbrooks]

I see that TYM courtesy is alive and well in the Sub0 forum...

I think this is the third or fourth time I see that shatter combo posted. I even posted it once, but then noticed someone else did and deleted my post out of sheer shame. I then took a shower and cried for a bit.

 

[RM Ree]

Speaking of reaction.... Is anybody applying this concept of blocking Sub-Zero's string and then recognizing whether or not the Clone came out before attempting to armor through it? I must've read something a while back before I was really playing that stuck with me... I thought that was supposed to be a thing.

But so far, from what I've seen of others and what I've experienced personally (albeit online), that's not really an issue. I feel like I only see people throw out armored reversals to block-strings like it's a read/guess. Is that the same for everyone else?

At VSF5, @PND_Ketchup was using trance to punish @Madzin b12 xx clone. A few times, Madzin opted not to clone after b12 and baited/ punished the following reversal trance. It highlighted the importance of punishing upon the opponent confirming clone, but at the time I don't think Quan mains were worried about the scenario too much.

I made a thread about the dream punish in that scenario, where SZ could answer back with 45-50% with 1-2 bars respectively. It opened up that MU a bit more and made trance very risky, more so than it was in the first place. Your experience with reversals online is very relatable, but something top players aren't going to do nearly as often as the game evolves.

 

[RM Ree]

I think this is the third or fourth time I see that shatter combo posted. I even posted it once, but then noticed someone else did and deleted my post out of sheer shame. I then took a shower and cried for a bit.

Better have been a cold shower...

 

[ChaosTheory]

At VSF5, @PND_Ketchup was using trance to punish @Madzin b12 xx clone. A few times, Madzin opted not to clone after b12 and baited/ punished the following reversal trance. It highlighted the importance of punishing upon the opponent confirming clone, but at the time I don't think Quan mains were worried about the scenario too much.

That's one of the sets I noticed right before I started playing. I'd like to see an example of somebody doing it consistently. Not just guessing right a bunch of times, but clearly only armoring only when the Clone comes out and never after a raw string.

I'm kinda in that mode where I'll believe it when I see it. Similar to 1,2 at range, I guess. I hear that's supposed to be a gimmick, but I don't know about that.

 

[RM Ree]

Speaking of, I like 12 a lot myself. 7f start, punishes back dash, insane reach, 123 cancels after 3 hits for good meter building, hit confirmable to slide for screen push. Still, probably most notable for its easy shatter combo application.

As for punishing strings > clone, it's pretty easy for a lot of characters. Give it a shot in practice mode for reference. You'll be pretty underwhelmed. The new hotness is confirming whether it's a clone or ex statue.

 

[ChaosTheory]

Do we have frame data for the Clone Shatter?

 

[RM Ree]

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1tU7Hqk8VtuEM3Pj1T4pKY-4dAuiO-Lkh6N4kStJGAxY/htmlview?pli=1#

This says clone toss is +1. I think shatter is closer to -2 or 0. Idk who has the means to test this, @Lokheit maybe?

 

[Lord Beef]

Speaking of, I like 12 a lot myself. 7f start, punishes back dash, insane reach, 123 cancels after 3 hits for good meter building, hit confirmable to slide for screen push. Still, probably most notable for its easy shatter combo application.

As for punishing strings > clone, it's pretty easy for a lot of characters. Give it a shot in practice mode for reference. You'll be pretty underwhelmed. The new hotness is confirming whether it's a clone or ex statue.

12 has some great mix up potential with b3 and b2 in the corner as well. 12 vs b2 vs whiffed 1 from behind clone into grab etc etc. But you are right, great for the shatter setups.

 

[ChaosTheory]

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1tU7Hqk8VtuEM3Pj1T4pKY-4dAuiO-Lkh6N4kStJGAxY/htmlview?pli=1#

This says clone toss is +1. I think shatter is closer to -2 or 0. Idk who has the means to test this, @Lokheit maybe?

Yeah, I reference that site a lot during lulls at work. I wonder why Clone Shatter wasn't included in the game.

 

[zoofs]

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1tU7Hqk8VtuEM3Pj1T4pKY-4dAuiO-Lkh6N4kStJGAxY/htmlview?pli=1#

This says clone toss is +1. I think shatter is closer to -2 or 0. Idk who has the means to test this, @Lokheit maybe?

it also depends on what you do before shatter I believe, b33 shatter is more negative than a reg shatter

 

[ChaosTheory]

it also depends on what you do before shatter I believe, b33 shatter is more negative than a reg shatter

Hm. Must be a distance thing, right? Shouldn't have anything to do with cancel-advantage.