Guide Sub VS Ermac

[Qwark28]

The number in the frame data thread has it as ~38. This is because it changes depending on your hitbox. When you do 214 ice clone, you can be punished by moves slower than 18 frames, IE. rain's lightning.

This is assuming that cancelling into a clone works the same as cancelling into other specials, like kabal's ndc. It probably does, but the frame data for sz before was different which made me think otherwise.

isnt rains lighting the same as his - on block

 

[NRF CharlieMurphy]

The number in the frame data thread has it as ~38. This is because it changes depending on your hitbox. When you do 214 ice clone, you can be punished by moves slower than 18 frames, IE. rain's lightning.

This is assuming that cancelling into a clone works the same as cancelling into other specials, like kabal's ndc. It probably does, but the frame data for sz before was different which made me think otherwise.

I don't think i've ever been punished by lighting from rain... btw. I can see what you're talking about though a tad..... but not really.
I have been punished by spear though. So I see what you're getting at.

btw... maybe it is punishable by slower things... it still doesn't really... change the usage. The knowledge is good to know, so thank you.

 

[Playpal]

you don't read my posts all the way through.... or you don't understand the concept i'm putting across.

214 clone can be punished. 214 cannot. The mix-up comes from the fact that they opponent has to be ON POINT to punish the clone version... because of the space and the quickness of their said move. Think like its Reptiles dash. Here we are... 2 years later... and people STILL miss this punish... because you sort of have to be looking for it. Same applies here.
Then... when you think they are going to try it... you don't clone, block the highly unsafe move they just tossed out and get a combo of your own. Simply because you forced them to be "on point".

This isn't a theory... this is fact. You can watch countless tourney matches where people miss the punish because they were caught off guard. That is the entire point.

Dude, I don't care about 214 being -9. That's not what I'm getting at.

My point is 214 clone is not -18.

 

[Playpal]

isnt rains lighting the same as his - on block

If you're talking about the recovery of lightning, it's -23. This isn't about rain though so let's not shift topics (again).

 

[Qwark28]

you don't read my posts all the way through.... or you don't understand the concept i'm putting across.

214 clone can be punished. 214 cannot. The mix-up comes from the fact that they opponent has to be ON POINT to punish the clone version... because of the space and the quickness of their said move. Think like its Reptiles dash. Here we are... 2 years later... and people STILL miss this punish... because you sort of have to be looking for it. Same applies here.
Then... when you think they are going to try it... you don't clone, block the highly unsafe move they just tossed out and get a combo of your own. Simply because you forced them to be "on point".

This isn't a theory... this is fact. You can watch countless tourney matches where people miss the punish because they were caught off guard. That is the entire point.

i did both

when at a high lvl and things like these are serious "mixups" then youd be a fool not to be on point about them, it might work online or on unexperienced people but it doesnt work in high lvl tournament play

 

[NRF CharlieMurphy]

Dude, I don't care about 214 being -9. That's not what I'm getting at.

My point is 214 clone is not -18.

that wasn't directed to you...... at all.

 

[Playpal]

that wasn't directed to you...... at all.

Right, my bad.

 

[Somberness]

212 is -13, 214 is -25, and 224 is -24.

 

[NRF CharlieMurphy]

212 is -13, 214 is -25, and 224 is -24.

this is depressing

 

[Qwark28]

this is depressing

now i guess we know why tom brady never laughs

 

[Espio]

212 is -13, 214 is -25, and 224 is -24.

So someone can check the 2,1,4 ice clone and 2,2,4 ice clone if they have a projectile or other long ranged special that reaches through the clone that comes out at under 24/25 frames?


I don't mean with actual damage, just like chip or something.

 

[NRF CharlieMurphy]

So someone can check the 2,1,4 ice clone and 2,2,4 ice clone if they have a projectile or other long ranged special that reaches through the clone that comes out at under 24/25 frames?


I don't mean with actual damage, just like chip or something.

that you can

but fear the exslide.... for you will be flipped into it.

 

[Qwark28]

that you can

but fear the exslide.... for you will be flipped into it.

not sure, 224 is VERY iffy and 214 requires the opponent to have walked back a lil

212 would work