Tech Skarlet Anti-cast (anti-Wakeup Attack)Tech?

Discussion in 'Skarlet' started by Eddy Wang, Apr 13, 2012.

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  1. Ninj

    Ninj Where art thou, MKX Skarlet? Staff Member Moderator

    XBL:
    aNinj
    EX Dagger is +21 on block, not +25. You also have to dash forward into the F2 - can it be done? Technically, perhaps it's possible, but realistically I don't believe it is. Per Somberness, Stand blocking or Down blocking is instant, so you'd have to execute this flawlessly every time, assuming it's even possible to truly jail someone.
  2. Altaire

    Altaire My sword has an eye on it.

    PSN:
    AItaire
    XBL:
    LOA Altaire
    ...Assuming it's even possible? Go test it for yourself. See if it's possible to duck an EX knife after a 1 1 4 is blocked standing. The idea that anyone is even debating whether or not it's possible to jail in MK9 is just surreal to me. Like, how is it even in doubt? It's been a staple of so many characters, for as long as the game's been out. Ermac thrives on it to make his 3 1 2 safe. Kitana thrives on it to do her 1 1 2 cutter off a JIP, because if the JIP didn't jail, they could just duck it every time. I can't believe this is even being called into question at this point.

    Apparently, EX knife is +21 now. I can remember it being +25, and then +22, but then, the frame data values seem to magically change on this site. Regardless, we'll assume it's +21. What you fail to realize is that human error is a factor. Yes, you technically only have two frames to dash and cancel into F2. You can buffer the dash during the EX knife itself, so that makes it a lot easier to time. However, even if you're a few frames off, literally all your opponent can do in this case is try to armor out in the interim. They'd still have to be extremely quick, and you'd have to be WAY off to let them out. It takes four frames to leave the ground, if I'm not mistaken. If they were to jump out, they'd need to clear the F2 completely to avoid getting caught. Your opponent has an extremely tight window to escape this even if you aren't completely spot-on, and if they guess wrong, you can hit confirm the F2 into a 31% damage combo, into a standing reset, to repeat the trap. Unless you really have absolutely nothing to lose, you're better off just taking the chip.

    Of course, the other argument I could leverage against this is that B1 has 14 frame startup, meaning you could easily just follow an EX knife jail with that (which you're forced to do against low hitbox characters to begin with). If you're really having issues with the traditional jail setup, just use B1 1 F4 for 2% less chip.
  3. Ninj

    Ninj Where art thou, MKX Skarlet? Staff Member Moderator

    XBL:
    aNinj
    I wasn't questioning whether Jailing is possible in MK9. I was questioning whether Skarlet can truly Jail with 1,1,2,{EX}DF1- xx F1,2,1,1+2. Either you intentionally try to start fights with people or you don't know how to read a sentence in context.

    Yes, you have to buffer the dash through EX Dagger cancel. It still takes frames to dash forward. You are +21 and automatically max sweep distance on a 1,1,2 reset, with a 19 frame execution true high F2.

    Let's be clear - F2,1,2,1+2 after an EX Dagger cancel can catch someone stand blocking, in which case they're forced to block the whole string again - but this isn't always Jailing, where you're forcing someone to stand block and they have no choice. I don't know how much recovery frames the opponent gets from Skarlet dashing forward from 1,1,2's reset distance, therefore I can't say whether or not you can or cannot Jail with F2,1,2,1+2 after a 1,1,2 reset. We're talking about a 2-frame window to Jail here at best. I consider myself rather good at this cancel string and I know from experience that I can be poked out of it by higher level players.

    1,1,4 (or 1,1,2) has 19 frames as well until the mid-hit connects (the first 1 is a true high, the 2nd 1 is 19 frames total execution) so you get the same issue here. B1,1,F4 is the alternative because your opponent will not be able to poke out of it, and if they try they will get launched into a reset again.
  4. Somberness

    Somberness Lights

    No, you can't remember it being it +25 because it never was. It was +22 but I realized you couldn't attack on the first frame out of the cancel so I changed it. Maybe if you actually read what I say, you'd know this and even many frames it takes to leave the ground.
  5. Altaire

    Altaire My sword has an eye on it.

    PSN:
    AItaire
    XBL:
    LOA Altaire
    Uh... No? You questioned whether or not it's possible to jail. Even in Skarlet's case, there is 100% conclusive proof that it's possible to jail into the EX knife. Having read the rest of your post, I realize now that you think linking into a block string = jailing, when it's not the same at all. Obviously, that lead to a misunderstanding, but don't turn around and accuse me of trying to instigate just because I misinterpreted something you said, especially when it was ultimately your fault for the misnomer. Jailing = Locking your opponent into a stand block state, in MK terms. What you're referring to is just rudimentary frame trapping.

    "True high"? No, F2 hits mid. Go test it. It whiffs low hitboxes, in which case you're forced to use B1 1 F4 instead, but on any other character, F2 CANNOT BE CROUCHED. You don't need to jail the opponent standing to connect with F2, you only need to jail them standing to connect with the EX knife, as that DOES hit high and can be ducked otherwise.
  6. Altaire

    Altaire My sword has an eye on it.

    PSN:
    AItaire
    XBL:
    LOA Altaire
    Just like Cyber Sub's D1 was never 8 frames and his D3 was never 7 frames, right?
  7. RedRaptor10

    RedRaptor10 Rampage's Protégé TYM|Premium Supporter

    IIRC F2 can connect on low hitbox characters after 1, 1, 4, EX Dagger. If not then I must be thinking of F2, 1, 2, 1+2, EX Dagger. I can't test now but even though 1, 1, 4 creates distance from you and your opponent, the EX Dagger also has to travel that distance so that gives you a bit more time to dash cancel into F2. I might be wrong so I'll test tomorrow.
  8. Ninj

    Ninj Where art thou, MKX Skarlet? Staff Member Moderator

    XBL:
    aNinj

    Tell me to go test it one more time...

    F2 whiffs on all crouching blocking hitboxes - it is a true high. Just like standing 1.

    We're referring to the same thing here on Jailing, as I explained in my post:

    What I left out of that sentence was the point that this scenario I presented in quotes isn't "Jailing" because what I'm describing is when the opponent screws up and stays in a standing block after an EX Dagger cancel.

    Altaire, After re-reading what you posted, I realized we're talking about the same thing in slightly different words. When I read your posts, in my mind you sound like an asshole, which quite frankly is distracting.

    Altaire I'm half-sorry for deleting your posts at first. I've put them back up. I'm only half sorry because I know that if any other user wrote the exact same post, the misinterpretation would never have happened in the first place.
    RedRaptor10 and Somberness like this.
  9. Ninj

    Ninj Where art thou, MKX Skarlet? Staff Member Moderator

    XBL:
    aNinj
    You recall incorrectly.
  10. Khaotic_xShangx

    Khaotic_xShangx Fear the Skulls

    f2 will always whiff on crouching people no matter what hitbox you have. and the f2, 1 whiffs on low hitbox characters giving them more time to poke out. If they block the ex dagger crouching they can poke out of f2 all day long. I have found with skarlet that she really doesnt have anything to approach someone after a successful d4 except that you slide right after it. Her normals are too slow imo but i still love her tho.
    Eddy Wang likes this.
  11. Eddy Wang

    Eddy Wang Kia, Jataaka, Sareena for MKX TYM|Premium Supporter

    PSN:
    eddywangmk
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    Again, the character execution depends of how good the player is, so some stuffs works better with other players IMO
  12. RedRaptor10

    RedRaptor10 Rampage's Protégé TYM|Premium Supporter



    F2 connects because the opponent isn't all the way in crouch block yet. If you input F2 late then it will whiff because they're 100% crouch blocked. The only times F2 will whiff on low hitbox characters is if they blocked the EX Dagger low such as D1, EX Dagger or the 1, 1, 2, reset into EX Dagger. I find it easier for 1, 1, 4, EX Dagger, F2 to jail stand blocking than F2, 1, 2, 1+2, EX Dagger, F2 because the 1, 1, 4 creates more distance for the EX Dagger to travel which (I believe) gives more cancel block advantage.
    Briyen likes this.
  13. RedRaptor10

    RedRaptor10 Rampage's Protégé TYM|Premium Supporter

    I think F2 can still connect on crouch block against high hitbox characters like Scorpion (will have to test this tomorrow :p) but you are right that if they block an EX Dagger crouching then F2 will whiff.

    If D4 hits the opponent standing, if you stop the Red Dash and do 1, 1, 2/4 it will still hit them on crouch block but they can still poke out.
  14. Ninj

    Ninj Where art thou, MKX Skarlet? Staff Member Moderator

    XBL:
    aNinj
    Ah ok, yes. That's not what you said (or not how I interpreted it) - if they're stand-blocking the string that leads into EX Dagger cancel then yes F2 will not whiff. If they're crouch-blocking the 1,1,4,{EX}DF1- then the resulting F2 will whiff.
    RedRaptor10 likes this.
  15. RedRaptor10

    RedRaptor10 Rampage's Protégé TYM|Premium Supporter

    Oh my bad. I thought you guys were talking about stand blocking cuz I read this line from Altaire:

    "If your opponent does JIP 1 1 4 or connects with the F2 string while you're in stand block, they get link in an EX knife and follow with a guaranteed F2 1 2 1+2. The ONLY exception is low hitbox characters, because the first two hits of F2 will whiff, and you can just substitute B1 1 F4 for those."

    But yeah EX Dagger will go over the opponent on crouch block after 1, 1, 4 so if you see the opponent crouch blocking then I don't think there's a reason to use EX Dagger.
    Eddy Wang likes this.
  16. Ninj

    Ninj Where art thou, MKX Skarlet? Staff Member Moderator

    XBL:
    aNinj
    You're right, and caused me to go back and re-read Altaire's posts. I edited my own up above to reflect what I now understand.
  17. Altaire

    Altaire My sword has an eye on it.

    PSN:
    AItaire
    XBL:
    LOA Altaire
    "Half-sorry"? Holy shit, listen to yourself. What you're basically saying is that you're only half-sorry because you were posting with a bias, even when I specified that I wasn't trying to insult you or attack you.

    I have a suggestion for you: Go put Scorpion in crouch. Just neutral crouch, no block; this is the state where high attacks whiff no matter what, after all. Perform F2.

    Lo and behold, it HITS! Standing 1 and standing 2 will still whiff, because they're NOT MIDS, but F2 will connect. I'm not even telling you to jury rig the character so it'll connect, I'm telling you to let him duck, walk up to him, and then punch him in the face with F2. I can PROMISE you it will hit.

    Now, go repeat this for Liu Kang. Smoke. Kabal. Raiden. Baraka. Kenshi. Noob. The list goes on. This attack HITS MID. It whiffs against certain characters in either crouch or crouch block because, gasp, MK9's hitboxes are inconsistent! We're at a point where it's not as simple as just being a low hitbox character or not being a low hitbox character. Some characters have a lower hitbox in crouch block than they do in neutral crouch, a la Smoke, Sektor and Kabal (all three of whom can escape this particular string while crouch blocking, but not while they're in neutral crouch). Hell, I believe some characters are actually the opposite. It was recently found that Kabal can duck Jax's F4 1 3 string, stand up and punish him in the middle of it, despite not being a "low hitbox character". No, it's not as low as Jax or Mileena, but it IS low enough. There are considered to be varying degrees of hitbox height now, which causes some mids to whiff even on characters apart from the traditional "low hitbox characters" (Kung Lao, Jax, Cage, Sonya, Mileena, Kitana, Sektor, Quan Chi, Reptile). Regardless, this attack DOES HIT MID, just not against every character. I'll say this for what must be the hundredth time: It whiffs on low hitboxes. As a Skarlet player, you need to take it upon yourself to KNOW which characters can duck it, and which characters can't. Roughly half the cast can avoid it either in crouch block, neutral crouch and sometimes both; big whoop, just use B1 1 F4 on those characters instead. You sacrifice 2% chip damage, and you don't get quite as much time to delay the red slide for mixup purposes due to the lower cancel advantage on the string. Oh no.

    So, basically, what I'm saying is that thirty seconds in practice could tell you that you're dead fucking wrong, yet you had the gall to tell me that I don't know anything about this character. Protip: I found this setup in September, before anyone even knew who the hell you were. I tested it then, and I found that it works on higher hitboxes, but not low hitboxes, which forces you to sub in a different string. I said exactly that in this thread, and you strung me up for it, when you clearly hadn't tested this thoroughly enough to be talking about it. You could've taken a couple minutes to go try this out for yourself, and you would've ascertained that you were mistaken. Instead, you chose to sling accusations of "misinformation" and project upon me. Boy, you're a real class act.

    You say that I sound like an asshole when you read my posts in your head. There is no "sounding like it" where you're concerned; you're just acting it at this point.
  18. Altaire

    Altaire My sword has an eye on it.

    PSN:
    AItaire
    XBL:
    LOA Altaire
    Also, completely unrelated: "True high" is the single most ridiculous bit of lexicon I've ever heard. If an attack is high, it is already THE HIGHEST HIT LEVEL POSSIBLE, and it will whiff neutral crouch state 100% of the time. Hit levels in MK9 are high, mid, special mid, low, and overhead. Highs can be blocked high or low, but whiff if ducked (sometimes if blocked low, depending on the character). Mids can be blocked high or low and cannot be ducked, except by certain low hitbox characters. Special mids are just mids that cannot be ducked by low hitbox characters, meaning they hit regardless of the opponent's hitbox. Lows and overheads should be self-explanatory at this point.

    I don't even want to know where the term "true high" came from.
  19. Khaotic_xShangx

    Khaotic_xShangx Fear the Skulls

    didnt i say if you block the ex dagger cancel low earlier that the f2 will whiff on everyone. Ive had people expecting ex dagger cancels now so i see when the block low when i start the 114 string so i just immediately follow up with a slide or throw
  20. Eddy Wang

    Eddy Wang Kia, Jataaka, Sareena for MKX TYM|Premium Supporter

    PSN:
    eddywangmk
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    So resuming, if Skarlet Dagger Cancel anyone standing they're Screwed xD
    Even if they Crouch Block they risk a 50/50.
    If they Wakeup attack while she has meter, they're screwed ^^

    lol, and still players says she is not S tier, not from where i'm standing ^^
  21. Eddy Wang

    Eddy Wang Kia, Jataaka, Sareena for MKX TYM|Premium Supporter

    PSN:
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    If you slide after a dagger cancel they will block. xD

    The fun with skarlet IMPOV starts when they block, once they do, they're out of options other than poke out correctly because skarlet is a real pain in the ass up close, if he blocks a Dagger cancel standing the F2 will come, and of course they will lose 10% or more before they crouch block. if they block low is 50/50. Wich Skarlet has more than 3 tickets to play so is REALLY hard to see what is comming.

    1º They Can't Jump while blocking the Dagger - Skarlet Can Crossover
    2º They can Risk a Poke - Skarlet can Punish with B1,1F4
    3º They can Crouch Without Blocking - Skarlet Can D+4/F+4 to Red Dash/ Down Slash/EX Down Slash/Slide
    4º They can Fuzzy Guard it - Skarlet Can Grab it
    5º they can keep waiting - Skarlet can keep building meter


    Its too much stuff to just keep blocking, at this kind of pressure they will have to do something, but if they do wrong they eat another punishment lol.

    Note: its not that you will do all this at same time, these are the option skarlet has while they're blocking a Dagger Cancel in crouch position.
  22. Ninj

    Ninj Where art thou, MKX Skarlet? Staff Member Moderator

    XBL:
    aNinj
    The hit boxes aren't "inconsistent" - the characters breathe, making their hitboxes move up and down. "Go test it" for yourself in practice mode using Skarlet's standing 1 or 2 - high hits will hit occasionally, but it depends on their breathing and when you hit them during that animation (as far as I can tell anyways). You can't do it if you're behind the person - you'll never hit.

    Anyways, I said I'm half-sorry. I'd be fully sorry if you weren't a dick to everyone and everything around you. :)

    So to summarize, yes Skarlet can trap someone with the EX Dagger cancel into F2,1,2,1+2 string if she catches them stand blocking a 1,1,2 or 1,1,4 string.

    Side-note: 1,1,2,{EX}DF1- hits an opponent crouch blocking in the corner - 1,1,4 will cause the EX dagger cancel to whiff though.
  23. Altaire

    Altaire My sword has an eye on it.

    PSN:
    AItaire
    XBL:
    LOA Altaire
    So, basically, that makes it okay for you to be a dick to be completely unprovoked, even after I clarified that I wasn't trying to fight with you.

    Sorry sunshine, that makes you a much bigger asshole than I could ever be.

    "Breathing"? Try it on the characters I listed, and F2 will hit EVERY SINGLE TIME. Hit boxes ARE inconsistent. People have been complaining about this game's collision detection since launch, and somehow this is news to you? This has been known ever since it was ascertained that Sektor has traditional low hitbox properties in crouch block, yet not in neutral crouch; he can't duck Sub's 2 2 in neutral crouch, but he can duck it in crouch block. Maybe you should do your fucking homework before you start popping off to me.
  24. Eddy Wang

    Eddy Wang Kia, Jataaka, Sareena for MKX TYM|Premium Supporter

    PSN:
    eddywangmk
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    EdsonWang
    Lol Altaire chill out, i know your posts are meant to be unofensive, but they look a bit agressive when i read it :p
    RedRaptor10 likes this.
  25. Altaire

    Altaire My sword has an eye on it.

    PSN:
    AItaire
    XBL:
    LOA Altaire
    I could understand that, so I didn't jump at him the first time; I just clarified that I wasn't looking for a fight. There's really no way to misinterpret that, so this one is all on him.

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