General/Other - Shinnok Shinnok General Discussion Thread

[legion666]

Yeah, you do need to have all your options guaranteed...that's why it's called a guaranteed mixup. Throw and F4 are guaranteed but the B3 isn't so the only "guaranteed mixup" he has is F4 or throw. F4 is 7 frames, yes you can delay it but if you delay it too long the opponent can armour out.

Why do you need to have b3 guaranteed if the f4 is guaranteed, it will still beat out any attempt at interruption, so from the math stand point it is 33.33333\66.6666666 and not 50/50, but these 66.6666666% probability is still covered with one option which is f4, so the other 33.3333% are covered with your second option which is b3. If your opponent takes that into account and thinks that it makes more sense for you to do f4 in that situation (66.6666% success probability plus it is a safe option with meter) he won't try to interrupt and be open for b3. For you it is still practically a 50/50 but with more options covered by f4. I mean what will you do when you are at -24 and you know that a run in with a guaranteed low can be coming, try to interrupt it?! Don't think so.

 

[legion666]

I really like his options in boneshaper even more now that he has an overhead.

OMG!We have got an evo champ here!)

 

[YOMI DJT]

OMG!We have got an evo champ here!)

Just joining in on some friendly shinnok talk aha.

 

[Youphemism]

I really like his options in boneshaper even more now that he has an overhead.

He already has an overhead in Bone Shaper, although it is part of a string but it's still decent since it launches is hit confirmable and is safe.

Why do you need to have b3 guaranteed if the f4 is guaranteed, it will still beat out any attempt at interruption, so from the math stand point it is 33.33333\66.6666666 and not 50/50, but these 66.6666666% probability is still covered with one option which is f4, so the other 33.3333% are covered with your second option which is b3. If your opponent takes that into account and thinks that it makes more sense for you to do f4 in that situation (66.6666% success probability plus it is a safe option with meter) he won't try to interrupt and be open for b3. For you it is still practically a 50/50 but with more options covered by f4. I mean what will you do when you are at -24 and you know that a run in with a guaranteed low can be coming, try to interrupt it?! Don't think so.

Eh? If they read that Shinnok is going for the overhead after the run cancel they are going to interrupt it, doesn't mean they're forgetting about the low or anything they're just going to interrupt the overhead. Remember at Fatal 8 when Sonicfox interrupted Scorpion's overhead after teleport because it wasn't guaranteed and he made the right read? Same thing applies here.

 

[YOMI DJT]

He already has an overhead in Bone Shaper, although it is part of a string but it's still decent since it launches is hit confirmable and is safe.

Eh? If they read that Shinnok is going for the overhead after the run cancel they are going to interrupt it, doesn't mean they're forgetting about the low or anything they're just going to interrupt the overhead. Remember at Fatal 8 when Sonicfox interrupted Scorpion's overhead after teleport because it wasn't guaranteed and he made the right read? Same thing applies here.

True but after blocking low for a while being conditioned. The overhead will open up I don't use a lot but when mixed in it is pretty good.

 

[legion666]

He already has an overhead in Bone Shaper, although it is part of a string but it's still decent since it launches is hit confirmable and is safe.

Eh? If they read that Shinnok is going for the overhead after the run cancel they are going to interrupt it, doesn't mean they're forgetting about the low or anything they're just going to interrupt the overhead. Remember at Fatal 8 when Sonicfox interrupted Scorpion's overhead after teleport because it wasn't guaranteed and he made the right read? Same thing applies here.

See evo champ knowsSonic interrupted it because he GUESSED right. If he GUESSED wrong he would have been blown up by a full combo that is how mix ups work anyway! Like in mk9 when you hit someone standing with Cyrax's d4 it is a guaranteed 1. Fearing that people were blocking afterwards and were eating command grabs. though you couldn't duck or poke out of 1 follow up, but you could do that out of the command grab follow up - command grab wasn't guaranteed at all but the mix up itself was guaranteed after the d4 hit someone standing.

 

[Youphemism]

See evo champ knowsSonic interrupted it because he GUESSED right. If he GUESSED wrong he would have been blown up by a full combo that is how mix ups work anyway! Like in mk9 when you hit someone standing with Cyrax's d4 it is a guaranteed 1. Fearing that people were blocking afterwards and were eating command grabs. though you couldn't duck or poke out of 1 follow up, but you could do that out of the command grab follow up - command grab wasn't guaranteed at all but the mix up itself was guaranteed after the d4 hit someone standing.

My point is that he could get out of the overhead which means it isn't guaranteed.

 

[RM_NINfan101]

I'll be on the record saying I really think ALL of his variations are now viable with the buffs he's got. I can condition my opponents to block low in Necro and then pop them with a b3 into combo and then a flick or if they don't have a ground tele a unblockable hand if they run at me moving it towards their direction or do flicks. People are getting extremely pissed off with the MB on block Hellsparks too, especially if they jump and it pops them up.

S H I N N O K B O Y Z

 

[Youphemism]

I'll be on the record saying I really think ALL of his variations are now viable with the buffs he's got. I can condition my opponents to block low in Necro and then pop them with a b3 into combo and then a flick or if they don't have a ground tele a unblockable hand if they run at me moving it towards their direction or do flicks. People are getting extremely pissed off with the MB on block Hellsparks too, especially if they jump and it pops them up.

S H I N N O K B O Y Z

How can you condition them to block low in Necro and what difference would that make since it's a zoning variation? Lol

 

[RM_NINfan101]

How can you condition them to block low in Necro and what difference would that make since it's a zoning variation? Lol

F4 xx hellsparks, that's how.

And it is NOT a zoning variation. If anything, it's spacing/footsies. Flick, Summoned Fiend and Unblockable hand are not meant to stop zoning period.

 

[Youphemism]

F4 xx hellsparks, that's how.

And it is NOT a zoning variation. If anything, it's spacing/footsies. Flick, Summoned Fiend and Unblockable hand are not meant to stop zoning period.

No Shinnok is a spacing/footsies character, Necromancer is his zoning variation. You use Devil's Flick to keep them off of you, the unblockable to stop them from advancing on you and the hand to catch them running at you for full combo mixed with the Hell Sparks.

 

[RM_NINfan101]

No Shinnok is a spacing/footsies character, Necromancer is his zoning variation. You use Devil's Flick to keep them off of you, the unblockable to stop them from advancing on you and the hand to catch them running at you for full combo mixed with the Hell Sparks.

Necromancer doesn't even have a projectile to zone with aside from hellsparks, which he gets in every variation. Flick is not meant to be a projectile either I noticed, but an annoying poking tool to keep your strings safe.

Flick you use in blockstrings, along with his footsies to make it safe. You deplete a lot of life in chip with EX amulet and hellsparks and flick used in block strings or on safe normals, as EX amulet is safe and you can't armor out of hellsparks especially EX, they must respect flick. Believe me, it may look like it's a zoning variation, but it's truly not one, because it doesn't play like one. While you can keep your opponent out with flick and Judgement Fist, they can just as easily get in on you as his specials are not meant to track a running opponent.

Then again, perhaps I just play it differently.

 

[Youphemism]

Necromancer doesn't even have a projectile to zone with aside from hellsparks, which he gets in every variation. Flick is not meant to be a projectile either I noticed, but an annoying poking tool to keep your strings safe.

Flick you use in blockstrings, along with his footsies to make it safe. You deplete a lot of life in chip with EX amulet and hellsparks and flick used in block strings or on safe normals, as EX amulet is safe and you can't armor out of hellsparks especially EX, they must respect flick. Believe me, it may look like it's a zoning variation, but it's truly not one, because it doesn't play like one. While you can keep your opponent out with flick and Judgement Fist, they can just as easily get in on you as his specials are not meant to track a running opponent.

Then again, perhaps I just play it differently.

You don't need a projectile to zone, that's what Flick's purpose is in this variation. And it most definitely is NOT a tool for keeping strings safe since you can armour through almost every single thing cancelled into it.

That's not what Flick's use is at all. I can see why you'd use it like that considering it doesn't do what it's supposed to do well right now (-____________-) but it's really for checking the opponent anywhere further than midscreen.

 

[RM_NINfan101]

You don't need a projectile to zone, that's what Flick's purpose is in this variation. And it most definitely is NOT a tool for keeping strings safe since you can armour through almost every single thing cancelled into it.

That's not what Flick's use is at all. I can see why you'd use it like that considering it doesn't do what it's supposed to do well right now (-____________-) but it's really for checking the opponent anywhere further than midscreen.

I'm telling you if Flick was any better than what it is right now it might be OD. Yes, you can armor through it, but you cannot armor through a EX amulet or MB Hellsparks. So you can actually get away doing Flick a fair bit especially if you mix up timings on the F2 strings such as F2,2 xx flick F2 xx Flick. Do it safely with 4 xx Flick, F4 XX flick in the corner... You can do things with it to where people cannot armor through it.

Also you cannot armor out of 3,1,2 xx Flick IIRC, and while yes you can use it TO ZONE, it's really more of spacing tool as he's safe after. I'm not saying you're wrong, just how I see it. Even starting to use EX flick in the corner now, as it's plus and I can do a b3 or a F4 and go for whatever I please.

 

[Youphemism]

I'm telling you if Flick was any better than what it is right now it might be OD. Yes, you can armor through it, but you cannot armor through a EX amulet or MB Hellsparks. So you can actually get away doing Flick a fair bit especially if you mix up timings on the F2 strings such as F2,2 xx flick F2 xx Flick. Do it safely with 4 xx Flick, F4 XX flick in the corner... You can do things with it to where people cannot armor through it.

Also you cannot armor out of 3,1,2 xx Flick IIRC, and while yes you can use it TO ZONE, it's really more of spacing tool as he's safe after. I'm not saying you're wrong, just how I see it. Even starting to use EX flick in the corner now, as it's plus and I can do a b3 or a F4 and go for whatever I please.

Nah it'd be what it should be if the tracking was fixed. It'd still be -4 and 22 frames on startup, but it'd be a better tool for checking/zoning. You can react to Flick coming out after a blockstring but not Amulet or Sparks so I wouldn't really say it makes it safe or anything. If they don't have armour then fine.

312 is the only guaranteed one but 312 is shit lol. It's a zoning/spacing tool then OK?!

I watched your match, you're not playing that matchup right. Keep him in check at full screen with Flicks then if he starts jumping throw out Sparks or DF4 to catch him for full combo. Don't let D'Vorah in, that's what she needs ESPECIALLY in Swarm Queen. Those bug cancels will destroy you as will her meterless damage so keep her the fuck out.

Keep in mind that now that we can EX Spark for block advantage you get a free Flick. After EX Sparks on block you get a guaranteed Flick because EX Spark is +24 and Flick is 22 frames startup

 

[Youphemism]

Known characters that Imposter Shinnok has a vortex against midscreen with F4/B3:

Ermac
Jacqui
Kitana
Kotal Kahn
Kung Lao
Mileena
Erron Black
Quan Chi
Scorpion
Shinnok
Sub Zero
----------------------------------------------
Vortex in Corner only with F4/B3:

Jax
----------------------------------------------
Vortex with NJP and F4 ??

Takeda
Kenshi
----------------------------------------------
No vortex:

D'vorah
Ferra/Torr
Goro
Johnny Cage
Kano
Kung Jin
Liu Kang
Raiden
Reptile
Sonya
Jason
----------------------------------------------

Does this appear accurate?

Wait how does he have a vortex on Jacqui? Why doesn't it work with Jax midscreen, and Kenshi or Takeda with B3?

 

[RM_NINfan101]

Nah it'd be what it should be if the tracking was fixed. It'd still be -4 and 22 frames on startup, but it'd be a better tool for checking/zoning. You can react to Flick coming out after a blockstring but not Amulet or Sparks so I wouldn't really say it makes it safe or anything. If they don't have armour then fine.

312 is the only guaranteed one but 312 is shit lol. It's a zoning/spacing tool then OK?!

I watched your match, you're not playing that matchup right. Keep him in check at full screen with Flicks then if he starts jumping throw out Sparks or DF4 to catch him for full combo. Don't let D'Vorah in, that's what she needs ESPECIALLY in Swarm Queen. Those bug cancels will destroy you as will her meterless damage so keep her the fuck out.

Keep in mind that now that we can EX Spark for block advantage you get a free Flick. After EX Sparks on block you get a guaranteed Flick because EX Spark is +24 and Flick is 22 frames startup

Yeah I tried to keep him out in previous matches but then he'd use that puddle and just get in anyway as I would be in more hit stun. Typically after a blocked flick. Since it doesn't go away once she's hit and it starts up I get scooped. MKX doesn't seem to store a lot of matches so I tend to only select a few to upload...

 

[RM_NINfan101]

Look at my videos i just uploaded in the Imposter shinnok vortex mega thread
heres one:

With Jax you can combo off of dash punch overhead in the corner.
nothing midscreen with him as far as i know

With Kenshi and Takeda there appears to be too much gravity to link from their specials into trance

You've put in work alright... Damn.

 

[Youphemism]

Look at my videos i just uploaded in the Imposter shinnok vortex mega thread
heres one:

With Jax you can combo off of dash punch overhead in the corner.
nothing midscreen with him as far as i know

With Kenshi and Takeda there appears to be too much gravity to link from their specials into trance

Alright thanks for the Jacqui vid, didn't know he could combo off of the stolen move from her since she barely can -_-

With Kenshi and Takeda why is it only NJP or F4 though? What situation are you doing that leaves only this mixup? Why wouldn't they be able to do B3 instead of NJP?

Whiffing characters special to continue vortex vs certain characters.
You're still at enough advantage after whiffed cartwheel to land a B3

Hahaha that's hype to look at actually.

 

[Fenixy]

No vortex:

Reptile

Does this appear accurate?

he have vortex vs reptile in the corner

 

[DownfouralitY]

Guud stuff

 

[MsMiharo]

Known characters that Imposter Shinnok has a vortex against midscreen with F4/B3:

Ermac
Ferra/Torr
Jacqui
Kitana
Kotal Kahn
Kung Lao
Mileena
Erron Black
Quan Chi
Sonya
Scorpion
Shinnok
Sub Zero
----------------------------------------------
Vortex in Corner only with F4/B3:

Reptile
Jax
----------------------------------------------
Vortex with NJP and F4 ??

Takeda
Kenshi
----------------------------------------------
No vortex:

D'vorah
Goro
Johnny Cage
Kano
Kung Jin
Liu Kang
Raiden
Jason
----------------------------------------------

Does this appear accurate?

I'm pretty sure you can vortex Kenshi (you can off the low at least) but I haven't found a viable combo yet.

 

[Youphemism]

I don't personally use the NJP/F4 50/50 because I don't know how to set it up.
I'm just going by the first post in the vortex megathread by shamwow.

I want trance to loop back into itself through combos.
So if I hit Takeda or Kenshi with a B3 and can't combo into trance for
whatever reason... That halts the vortex.
Unless someone can find a way

I hope that explains it.

Well could you whiff Takeda's over him then still have time to go for the mixup? With Kenshi you can do F4~DB1 and combo off of it I'm sure but after B3 could you maybe do B3, F22~DB2(MB 3rd), whiff DB1, continue combo? I mean I'm just theorizing out loud here but you could try something like that?

I mean I'll test it myself tomorrow probably but you could probably test it now since I'm going to bed lol.

 

[usedcarsalesmang]

Well could you whiff Takeda's over him then still have time to go for the mixup? With Kenshi you can do F4~DB1 and combo off of it I'm sure but after B3 could you maybe do B3, F22~DB2(MB 3rd), whiff DB1, continue combo? I mean I'm just theorizing out loud here but you could try something like that?

I mean I'll test it myself tomorrow probably but you could probably test it now since I'm going to bed lol.

I tried that with Takeda. It might catch someone off guard,
but you need to be at a perfect angle for it to work and even then they can escape it with backdash/jump ect...

Nope, that Kenshi B3 combo wasn't working for me unfortunately

 

[Youphemism]

I tried that with Takeda. It might catch someone off guard,
but you need to be at a perfect angle for it to work and even then they can escape it with backdash/jump ect...

Nope, that Kenshi B3 combo wasn't working for me unfortunately

You can do it in the air though, try that.

Damn I'll test some stuff tomorrow then and see what I can find.