General/Other - Shinnok Shinnok General Discussion Thread

[Ojpaxton]

TE="legion666, post: 1697467, member: 11544"]I agree with him being a whiff punisher, but a keep away character or a zoner????? This he certainly doesn't have the frames for! I mean he has frames neither for zoning nor for rushdown right now. Quan chi is a zoner... And a mix up/vortex character... With great pressure....and meterless 40+% combos.....he Exs his runes for +15 on block, its non-ex version is basically safe from half a screen away... But he still gets to ex it for + frames. Shinnok has none of his tools.... None, and you are saying he is a zoner, and being able to ex Hell Sparks on block for + frames is asking for too much????
My second point is that people can armor through 2nd or 3rd spark no matter how safe the third one is, so being able to ex the first spark that actually gets blocked to make it safe or advantage(it costs a bar-come on) will become crucial when armor comes into play. It is better to have Hell sparks as unsafe as it is right now but being able to Ex it on block.[/QUOTE]
Lol dude it needs to be safe non enhanced, shinnok needs meter to do damage, hell sparks is the best way to gain meter on block also it pushes them awa. If only enhanced was safe we would need a extra buff

 

[Ninequads93]

Shinnok troll combo:

He can get 41% if your not trying to troll

 

[Juggs]

22's first hit being an overhead makes a lot of sense. This plus some positive frame changes alone will make Shinnok a lot more viable.

 

[Youphemism]

I agree with him being a whiff punisher, but a keep away character or a zoner????? This he certainly doesn't have the frames for! I mean he has frames neither for zoning nor for rushdown right now. Quan chi is a zoner... And a mix up/vortex character... With great pressure....and meterless 40+% combos.....he Exs his runes for +15 on block, its non-ex version is basically safe from half a screen away... But he still gets to ex it for + frames. Shinnok has none of his tools.... None, and you are saying he is a zoner, and being able to ex Hell Sparks on block for + frames is asking for too much????

That's exactly my point! Lol. He IS designed to play that way but the frame data doesn't match. You'll see once he gets buffed And I didn't say being able to EX Hell Sparks on block for plus frames was too much, I said it would be useless if you made normal Hell Sparks safe anyway.

My second point is that people can armor through 2nd or 3rd spark no matter how safe the third one is, so being able to ex the first spark that actually gets blocked to make it safe or advantage(it costs a bar-come on) will become crucial when armor comes into play. It is better to have Hell sparks as unsafe as it is right now but being able to Ex it on block.

Exactly, it costs a bar, and you're pushing them full screen for basically an extra half second. It isn't going to stop them armouring through the next normal Hell Sparks. The only advantage EX Hell Sparks gives right now is faster startup, the only thing it needs is to be a launcher because you need to spend ANOTHER bar to convert off of it right now. Making it plus will make little difference in matchups tbh.

Tbh, even if 1223 and Bone Shaper's Axes strings weren't launchers, I still believe that this character deserves to have better design and thought out tools.

EX Hell Sparks is pointless. It would be more useful and interesting if it worked like Shang's EX Down Skull..

That's mostly the point that I should be making. Regardless of NRS planning to make the character mediocre and improve him. His native tools are not innovative or particularly interesting.

I think we can all agree that this character was meant to fill Shang Tsung's role in this game. The thing is that throughout THREE whole variations this attempt at making a Shang type character has not been realised.

FIXING his frame data is always going to be a start, but I personally like the character and don't want to be relegated to standing there and flicking people to death when interesting design choices could be implemented very easily.

There aren't enough space control/zoning specific characters in this game and having one that has specific variations that allow for have even stronger mixups, zoning or footsie a isn't a bad thing.

We will agree to disagree, but this is what I hoped Shinnok would offer at the very least:

Shang Tsung and Sinestro and examples of good design choices that allow for a player to have options and be expressive and not make a character OP.

I think Wound Cowboy is using Sub at the moment. Do you think the people who enjoyed Shang and Sinestro would be choosing Kano, Sub or Jaqcui if this character was actually properly designed?

You're mistaking design and frame data. His tools are good and can be very good with the right frame data, but because the frame data on them (and tracking) is shit right now they don't look good. Doesn't mean they aren't good. Just because his design doesn't go with what you want him to be doesn't mean he "needs" or "deserves" a redesign.

His native tools are not innovative or interesting in your opinion, but you are biased in your expectations of what you wanted him to be. He was never going to come out exactly like you wanted and if you don't find his design interesting then you don't have to play him, but don't come in to the Shinnok thread complaining about it because we Shinnok players are dealing with it because that's the way it goes. He'll probably get buffed and there'll be little to no complaints from us. Saying you don't like how he plays isn't going to make NRS suddenly decide to revamp the character so it's useless even asking for something like that. Not enough dev time or money for stuff like that I'm afraid.

No, he was not "meant to fill Shang Tsung's role". This is a new game, there are no roles to be filled because the story isn't the same nor are the characters. So Shinnok wasn't "meant to fill in Shang Tsung's role", if anything he's replacing Shao Kahn in this game (but ended up being one of the lowest tier characters in the first month lmao). So expecting that Shinnok would be like Shang is a huuuuuuuuuge mistake, especially considering that NRS aren't known for giving characters the same moves over and over game after game.

Fine, then don't flick. Play Bone Shaper. Play Impostor. Play Necromancer using DF4 and DB2. Don't complain, adapt. If there is literally nothing you can do then and only then will there be complaint-worthy motives. If flicking doesn't suit your playstyle then use his other tools. If you don't like Shinnok's design don't play him, there are plenty of other characters remember.

That's the point, it's not supposed to be a game revolving around characters that ply the way Shinnok plays, he is an exception. This is a game heavily focussed on rushdown. Your mistake is expecting a character in one game to play the same as a character in another game. That's not how it works. Shinnok is not going to play like Shang or Sinestro and that's the point, he's differently designed because that's what evolution is in gaming. You don't want to recycle the same stuff over and over, or at least NRS don't. So there is no point in comparing him to other characters in other games and expecting him to play like them.

And that's a horrible question. They're not avoiding playing Shinnok because of his design, they're avoiding him because of his frame data and tracking. That's the point I've been making this whole time that's obviously been ignored -_-

 

[Wemfs]

Shinnok is crap. He feels so limited and repetitive. It got boring real fast.

I have my eyes on Jason next since nobody else really interests me at the moment. Hopefully Jason isn't a steaming pile of crap.

Good luck to you Shinnok mains. :] I'm not gonna mess with him unless he gets the changes he desperately needs.

 

[RM_NINfan101]

Shinnok is crap. He feels so limited and repetitive. It got boring real fast.

I have my eyes on Jason next since nobody else really interests me at the moment. Hopefully Jason isn't a steaming pile of crap.

Good luck to you Shinnok mains. :] I'm not gonna mess with him unless he gets the changes he desperately needs.

It's not like he needs much tbh but good luck with Jason Wemfs!

 

[Ojpaxton]

That's exactly my point! Lol. He IS designed to play that way but the frame data doesn't match. You'll see once he gets buffed And I didn't say being able to EX Hell Sparks on block for plus frames was too much, I said it would be useless if you made normal Hell Sparks safe anyway.

Exactly, it costs a bar, and you're pushing them full screen for basically an extra half second. It isn't going to stop them armouring through the next normal Hell Sparks. The only advantage EX Hell Sparks gives right now is faster startup, the only thing it needs is to be a launcher because you need to spend ANOTHER bar to convert off of it right now. Making it plus will make little difference in matchups tbh.

You're mistaking design and frame data. His tools are good and can be very good with the right frame data, but because the frame data on them (and tracking) is shit right now they don't look good. Doesn't mean they aren't good. Just because his design doesn't go with what you want him to be doesn't mean he "needs" or "deserves" a redesign.

His native tools are not innovative or interesting in your opinion, but you are biased in your expectations of what you wanted him to be. He was never going to come out exactly like you wanted and if you don't find his design interesting then you don't have to play him, but don't come in to the Shinnok thread complaining about it because we Shinnok players are dealing with it because that's the way it goes. He'll probably get buffed and there'll be little to no complaints from us. Saying you don't like how he plays isn't going to make NRS suddenly decide to revamp the character so it's useless even asking for something like that. Not enough dev time or money for stuff like that I'm afraid.

No, he was not "meant to fill Shang Tsung's role". This is a new game, there are no roles to be filled because the story isn't the same nor are the characters. So Shinnok wasn't "meant to fill in Shang Tsung's role", if anything he's replacing Shao Kahn in this game (but ended up being one of the lowest tier characters in the first month lmao). So expecting that Shinnok would be like Shang is a huuuuuuuuuge mistake, especially considering that NRS aren't known for giving characters the same moves over and over game after game.

Fine, then don't flick. Play Bone Shaper. Play Impostor. Play Necromancer using DF4 and DB2. Don't complain, adapt. If there is literally nothing you can do then and only then will there be complaint-worthy motives. If flicking doesn't suit your playstyle then use his other tools. If you don't like Shinnok's design don't play him, there are plenty of other characters remember.

That's the point, it's not supposed to be a game revolving around characters that ply the way Shinnok plays, he is an exception. This is a game heavily focussed on rushdown. Your mistake is expecting a character in one game to play the same as a character in another game. That's not how it works. Shinnok is not going to play like Shang or Sinestro and that's the point, he's differently designed because that's what evolution is in gaming. You don't want to recycle the same stuff over and over, or at least NRS don't. So there is no point in comparing him to other characters in other games and expecting him to play like them.

And that's a horrible question. They're not avoiding playing Shinnok because of his design, they're avoiding him because of his frame data and tracking. That's the point I've been making this whole time that's obviously been ignored -_-

On fucking point

 

[Youphemism]

Shinnok is crap. He feels so limited and repetitive. It got boring real fast.

I have my eyes on Jason next since nobody else really interests me at the moment. Hopefully Jason isn't a steaming pile of crap.

Good luck to you Shinnok mains. :] I'm not gonna mess with him unless he gets the changes he desperately needs.

He'll get his buffs, they're more than due. I know they're coming because that was (hopefully) NRS' intention from the start. And when they come I will rise with Shinnok.























Then Fujin will come as the 5th DLC character and I'll rip you all to fucking shreds GG no re style.

 

[Ojpaxton]

Sick of people down playing shinnok

 

[MrSunshine]

Sick of people down playing shinnok

Why would people up play a obviously mediocre character? Most of the people playing shinnok are being honest.

 

[Ojpaxton]

Why would people up play a obviously mediocre character? Most of the people playing shinnok are being honest.

Lol no shit, but he's better then alot of you think, one buff just one buff and he's legit. His design shits on the current "meta". Disagree idgaf but I'mma main this son of a bitch until the end.

 

[MrSunshine]

Lol no shit, but he's better then alot of you think, one buff just one buff and he's legit. His design shits on the current "meta". Disagree idgaf but I'mma main this son of a bitch until the end.

Ok have fun

 

[DownfouralitY]

Why would people up play a obviously mediocre character? Most of the people playing shinnok are being honest.

this lol

 

[Helter Skelter]

Just because I think he needs an overhaul doesn't mean that I don't know how to play him or understand how to use him.

He's my main character and I use Bone Shaper as my main variation.

Tbh, I've been using him from day 1 and I really don't care about how good he ends up being. I just feel that his design is obviously rushed and limited comparatively to the rest of the cast and he does feel rushed in terms of gameplay design.

He is the most fun character for me to play but I also feel that his potential as an innovative character fell short. Of course he's not Shang or Sinestro but surely NRS would expand on the archetypes they have been building. The character feels reductive.

I could have Hell Sparks be safe on block and be satisfied but I think treating this character in such a separative way is not right.

No character in a fighting game should be viewed in a vacuum.

 

[Malec]

Sick of people down playing shinnok

yeah lets see how much fun you have with Shinnok in 3-6 months without him beeing buffed and the people start to punish every shit you have got. We are not down playing him, but he has obvious flaws (dont have to be a genius to see this) and a simple flick tracking fix (necromancer only) or hell spark safe on block wont cut it.

Edit: I am sure a lot of us arent even salty or losing alot, I am not and I am winning alot of matches, but it dosent feel deserved, because I know exactly that my opponents dont have a fucking idea whats going on most of the time, and I am just getting away with my unsafe BS.

 

[RM_NINfan101]

I don't think anyone here is downplaying, it's been said by Pig that he feels Shinnok is overall weak as well as M2Dave, and they do not main him. So that must mean their opinion on him is very, very strong.

Another thing I noticed is how much better he actually looks online than offline. Me and @RM_xSTRANGERx were playing and talking about how he just would get punished so hard for anything he does offline, since online feels like it has about 6-7 frame delay of lag.

 

[regulas]

I don't think anyone here is downplaying, it's been said by Pig that he feels Shinnok is overall weak as well as M2Dave, and they do not main him. So that must mean their opinion on him is very, very strong.

Another thing I noticed is how much better he actually looks online than offline. Me and @RM_xSTRANGERx were playing and talking about how he just would get punished so hard for anything he does offline, since online feels like it has about 6-7 frame delay of lag.

One thing to note is that Dave and Pig dismissed him mostly because he's weak at zoning, when from what I can tell he seems more of a footsies character.

As for him getting punished there just stick to the safe stuff.

also someone should really make Variant specific discussion/guide threads.

 

[xInfra Deadx]

Sick of people down playing shinnok

Dude. He fucking sucks right now. I've been more times than not getting away with murder here because most of my stuff is UNSAFE...and when it could be safe like Flick, it can get armored out of. People are going to catch on and pummel him so badly.

 

[regulas]

Dude. He fucking sucks right now. I've been more times than not getting away with murder here because most of my stuff is UNSAFE...and when it could be safe like Flick, it can get armored out of. People are going to catch on and pummel him so badly.

I don't really get why everyone talks about un-safe stuff. Maybe Imp? But Boneshaper has superior safe strings, and Necro can use flick with some strings/hits to make them all safe, so in both cases you can do footsies well enough including some that can be hitconfirmed into combo's. Along with punish power he seems fine enough overall, I can at least see viable strats with him even as is.

Just because his specials are unsafe doesn't mean you can't play safe.

 

[RM_NINfan101]

One thing to note is that Dave and Pig dismissed him mostly because he's weak at zoning, when from what I can tell he seems more of a footsies character.

As for him getting punished there just stick to the safe stuff.

also someone should really make Variant specific discussion/guide threads.

Shinnok is nothing but gimmicks at this point, and because he's such a weird character and his tools are very awkward to use, and has the most unsafe strings or parts of blockstrings just randomly whiffing at times depending on how far the character is and what position he's in, there's a lot more to it than just zoning. Bone Shaper for example is not a zoning variation, yet has the worst fireball in the game IMO. He definitely is a footsies, poking/spacing character, but he has no damage to make up for the fact that the majority of his moves can be blown up or can be punished. There is no safe stuff with Shinnok, there is always a risk, unless you wanna do 1,1... Because that apparently is -6.

EDIT: In Necro, the only thing safe is 3,1,2 into flick, and that's if the string does what it's supposed to: reach and connect on the hits, or else you can armor through it like everything else. As for Bone Shaper, One string does not a character make. Even if b3,1,d2 is really good, It's rough to only rely on that string and that string alone. there's a reason no one is playing this character at tournaments guys...

 

[zerosebaz]

I know it won't happen, but what I really want is for Imposter to have a EX mimicry where he steals a variation specific move. Oh, and being able to do the EX versions of stolen moves would be awesome too.

Exactly, it costs a bar, and you're pushing them full screen for basically an extra half second. It isn't going to stop them armouring through the next normal Hell Sparks. The only advantage EX Hell Sparks gives right now is faster startup, the only thing it needs is to be a launcher because you need to spend ANOTHER bar to convert off of it right now. Making it plus will make little difference in matchups tbh.

I think you are confusing Enhance, as in MK9, with MB, as in Injustice. Remember this game has both options. MB Hell Sparks can be done on all 3 fireballs (only on hit) and is what makes the fireball explode, so you can convert into anything. Being able to MB on block for advantage would be useful, if you MB the first one you wouldn't have to worry about opponents armoring through the other 2 and would be left at advantage to continue your pressure, pretty useful in the corner too. Plus, as you don' want characters to be away from you if they outzone you, with this you could hit confirm it so if it hits, you MB on third fb for max damage, but if they bloc you can keep them close.
I'm not saying this would be better than having the regular HS being safe on block, but rather pointing out this would be a good buff too, and ideally he should get both.

 

[Malec]

One thing to note is that Dave and Pig dismissed him mostly because he's weak at zoning, when from what I can tell he seems more of a footsies character.

As for him getting punished there just stick to the safe stuff.

ok and where is his "safe stuff" you are talking about?
-1,1,(2),(3) with 9 frames startup not one of the faster pokes in the game, shitty range/priority, starts high
-2,2 shitty frames, shitty range, starts high, completly useless string
-3,2,1 slow as fuck, nooooo range, string whiffing randomly, completly useless
-f2,2,3 or 4? (sry I just play bone shaper) good range, but unsafe
-f2,2 bone shaper has a super slow start up and is even worse on block
-b/f3,1,d2 string in bone shaper is OK but its just ok, this string wont win you anything in the long run and I am pretty sure you can fuzzy guard the overhead and low scoop mixup, cause the overhead is so slow and the scoop is fast.
....and plz dont let me get started with his specials....

so what am I missing?! where dose Shinnok excel?????
-Zoning? he dosent have the tools for that, Necromancer Flick is safe and thats about it, broken tracking on specials and beeing fucked if they get in, hell sparks beeing ass.
-rushdown, mixups, vortex? ....good one...next
-is he supposed to be footsie based? I am fine with that, thats exactly what I wanted while I was looking forward to bone shaper. But he has NOTHING to work with, his strings are ass, he has one!!! medicroe string in bone shaper. I belive ALL other chars have at least one string that is 0 on block, where is Shinnoks fucking 0 on block pressure string?!

soooo....Shinnok has shitty strings, super unsafe AND BROKEN specials, playing footsies is super hard with his tools and it isnt even rewarding cause he has NO METERLESS DAMAGE and his damage with meter is PATHETIC. yeah Imposter can get some nice damage with the buff and some stolen moves, but you cant balance the damage output of a character based on one variation, can you?

Sry but if anyone thinks he is fine or just needs a minor tweak, then you have no fucking idea what you are talking about.

 

[D_Matt_Ma]

We should start a speculation of buffs the patch will give him. Pessimist will say: He will get none. In which case, I am leaving this character

I would like to see: 1) Damage buff on strings, 2) Faster ANIMATION on enhanced shoulder (start-up, gaps, and recovery reduced), and 3) Amulet strike causing stun animation like Erron Black's sand

Imposter: Fake teleport to land in ground in front of him (takes stamina)
Bone Shaper: faster recovery on his amulet projectile (since he doesn't have amulet strike)
Necromancer: Faster DF4

Again, if you're the pessimist, you'll expect nothing, and I will applaud your pessimism. That's a promise.

 

[regulas]

I do expect him to get some buffs and a ton of bug fixes but it just strikes me equally that people are playing him wrong to boot. The whole point of footsies is to be hitting based on reach which is more about timing then variation.

Necro
Now anyway I get that there are tons of miss bugs especially on some characters, but as far as I can see a lot of things like F22 flick or 4~flick, or f3 flick, or b1 flick (around half the normals really). Are all safe cancels into flick that can't be poked or jumped, with enough pushblock distance to leave you in a good position.

Boneshaper
You main move is b31 by itself with d2~ added for combo hits. This kind of range on a safe spamable string is good. The fact that you can hit confirm this into a combo is even better. I do feel boneshaper suffers more for not having a safe special notably since it does limit you to 1 really good string (plus a lot of single hit normals), but I feel that that string isn't being used for what it is.

 

[omegapr1me99]

Is uppercut Shinnok's only viable anti-air for close range jump-ins?