Question - Pyromancer Pyromancer needs help.

[Awkward Sloth]

Her NJP out priotizes everything in the game.

Zoidberg go home. You're drunk.

 

[TarkatanDentist]

This is the kind of discussion we need in here.


You'll have to be more specific on this one. They can all be ducked and dashed past and then punishable outside sweep. Which projectiles are we matching them with and in what is Pyro-Tanya similar to those characters? Does their playstyle vastly depend on those projectiles? Are those projectiles crucial to their damage output?

Well, her ground fireballs are largely pretty similar to Johnny Cage's (though admittedly a tad weaker unless your opponent is 'misted'), so I suppose there's not much else to say there. Their frame data seems pretty unspectacular as far as projectiles go, and low fireball is a pretty good way to chip at many opponents, especially those with poorer air mobility.

As for her air fireballs, as said, they're definitely v.punishable on a read. But again, only on a read. They don't know whether you'll go for a close or far air fireball (or even the EX version to cover both grounds - easy safe chip damage), whether you'll empty jump, or even go for a teleport instead (air back teleport into far air fireball works well a lot of the time and is difficult for many to punish even if read).

And the very fact that the fireballs except for low fireball hit at much different angles than most projectiles do is a big deal in zoning wars.

It's a good projectile but it's not groundbreaking or a solution to this version's playstyle.

That seems like a fair enough summary of EX Fireball, tbh (except that I don't think Pyro really needs a solution, of course)

Again you're being very vague. We're not debating whether other characters need a move like Shroud, we're looking at Pyro's design and concluding that in the current combination of tools, it's unfortunately rather weak.

Sure thing. But looking at what Pyro can do that a significant cast cannot is a big factor in determining how worthwhile it is as a variation. That was my main intended point of that particular segment of the post.

Not a lot of them, she doesn't have a lot of universal specials. She has those listed and none of them are of major use.

I guess that depends on what you mean by 'major use' tbf - all of them are pretty situational, for sure.

You can pretty much just counterpick the counterpick. I don't find that a valid argument at all.

Well, for sure you can. But you could say the same about... any variation ever. :/

To give a more concrete example, I believe pretty strongly that Pyro is the best choice against Ferra/Torr (all variations). In particular, their v.poor mobility makes it much easier to lock them down with fireballs, and their ability to absorb projectiles isn't as prevalent against Tanya's fireballs (except the Low Fireball of course) because of the angles they connect from.

Blockstrings do not exist in MK unless they lead into actual pressure. Anybody can njp Tanya for a full combo after Shroud if you try to press buttons, or you have to block and the ball is in their park.

All in all I maintain that Pyro-Tanya needs help.

This is highly MU dependent, but backdashing after a blocked Shroud works well against characters who lack safe advancing normals (backdash is a v. underused tool in general tbh).

I'm only claiming that Pyro is a 'decent' variation, nothing more.

And as an aside, while EX Shroud is certainly a useful tool, I really don't understand folks that claim it's ridiculous/one of the best moves in the game etc. etc. It's hardly overpowered.

 

[Zoidberg747]

Zoidberg go home. You're drunk.

Slight exaggeration but there is some truth to it. If you njp most d2s the NJP will beat it out. If you NJP other NJPs it will at the very least trade. If you NJP any normals it will usually beat them. If you NJP some specials it will also beat them.

The only way to stop her NJP from at least trading is to never let her do it. This is from about a month's experience in all variations. Its not Quan Chi NJP good but it is good.

 

[GLoRToR]

Slight exaggeration but there is some truth to it. If you njp most d2s the NJP will beat it out. If you NJP other NJPs it will at the very least trade. If you NJP any normals it will usually beat them. If you NJP some specials it will also beat them.

The only way to stop her NJP from at least trading is to never let her do it. This is from about a month's experience in all variations. Its not Quan Chi NJP good but it is good.

It doesn't "out priotize" anything, it's called frame data. If something is fewer frames like Quan's njp, that one will win. If something is more frames... you should know this shit.
Go drunk you're home.

 

[Zoidberg747]

It doesn't "out priotize" anything, it's called frame data. If something is fewer frames like Quan's njp, that one will win. If something is more frames... you should know this shit.
Go drunk you're home.

Priority is definitely a thing in fighting games.

http://mugen.wikia.com/wiki/Priority

@ATP2014
@greguu

I play these two all the time and they can tell you how my njp will beat there's even if they read I am going to forward tele. This is Kung Jin's NJP no less.

 

[VoyagersRevenge]

I was beating Pyro with Cyber Kano prepatch.

With Cyber you can throw knives more in this MU than most, so use the timing to catch Pyro when she lands from air fireballs, and then follow up knives if she pushes buttons so she has to block. At certain heights you can use Kano Ball to punish air fireball. If you jump over a ground fireball punish with Airball. At certain distances you can time when to go under air fireballs with runs for a trip guard punish. You can backdash pretty much her entire movelist consistently in Pyro except F2. When pressuring her you just be careful of EX Shroud. And don't trade when under a shroud spell.

That's the main stuff off of the top of my head. MU doesn't feel bad at all to me, possibly adv even. Unlike that ridiculously tough Kobu MU.

Also, I read Startup is having another tourney on Saturday. Are you going? I might hit it up.

I'll most likely show up to that. $5 bucks entry is nothinnnn.. Plus they'll probably have free pizza or other food given out lol

 

[Awkward Sloth]

Fun buff idea. If both fireballs stay as negative give Tanya the ability to 2in1 cancel up fire ball into regular fireball so she has the ability to have better screen coverage.

Harley had this in Injustice and she had better recovery and her projectile was a high as well as plus. And she still was bad.

Tanya's fireball isn't even a true mid on the ground thanks to its arc.

This could also add combo potential in the corner at least if the opponent had shroud on them.

 

[GLoRToR]

Priority is definitely a thing in fighting games.

http://mugen.wikia.com/wiki/Priority

@ATP2014
@greguu

I play these two all the time and they can tell you how my njp will beat there's even if they read I am going to forward tele. This is Kung Jin's NJP no less.

Kung Jin's i8 so of course it beats it. Not the point at all.

 

[Deleted member 9158]

I used to use pyro but I realized her tools are limited and she's full of gimmicks and easily dealt with by people who know the match up. Switching to kobu gas been much more enjoyable

 

[Zoidberg747]

Kung Jin's i8 so of course it beats it. Not the point at all.

"even when they read I am going to do it" means they njp before me and I still hit them. That is the point.

Stop thinking purely in terms of frame data, especially in this game since half of it is wrong.

 

[GLoRToR]

"even when they read I am going to do it" means they njp before me and I still hit them. That is the point.

Stop thinking purely in terms of frame data, especially in this game since half of it is wrong.

Jin is one opponent, there are plenty of others in which the matchup depends on njp such as Takeda whom you can't even fucking reach he'll just do lash lash dagger and all you can do is armor out only for him to teleport.
Stop thinking you're some all knowing confuckingdescending source of utterly accurate knowledge and try listening or just stfu and stop responding because your input is not valuable or even interesting. You aren't contributing anything just bringing up a marginal example trying to debunk a simple fact;

Tanya's njp is way too slow for somebody advertised as "the airborne character" on her release. It's i7, seven frames startup, it's considered "mediocre" because there are a few worse and plenty better njps in the game, including many of which can hit a crouching opponent even at full height.
Kung Jin can njp crouching characters. Tool has a different function. It's for reaching people while being airborne thus safe from 90% of the moves in the game while doing so. Bad comparison of tools. Period.
There's a vast majority of the cast whose njp is better either by range or by frames. It doesn't matter if you "think" it's good or if you can beat out a slower njp and you're like "woo hoo you're so wrong because THIS character is slower".

And this is not even the point of the post because that is ONE grievance, Pyro has MANY problems since it was built around that ridiculous fucking teleport. Which is no more. But the variation is there. And it needs help. Point of this thread. Capisce?

 

[Zoidberg747]

Jin is one opponent, there are plenty of others in which the matchup depends on njp such as Takeda whom you can't even fucking reach he'll just do lash lash dagger and all you can do is armor out only for him to teleport.
Stop thinking you're some all knowing confuckingdescending source of utterly accurate knowledge and try listening or just stfu and stop responding because your input is not valuable or even interesting. You aren't contributing anything just bringing up a marginal example trying to debunk a simple fact;

Tanya's njp is way too slow for somebody advertised as "the airborne character" on her release. It's i7, seven frames startup, it's considered "mediocre" because there are a few worse and plenty better njps in the game, including many of which can hit a crouching opponent even at full height.
Kung Jin can njp crouching characters. Tool has a different function. It's for reaching people while being airborne thus safe from 90% of the moves in the game while doing so. Bad comparison of tools. Period.
There's a vast majority of the cast whose njp is better either by range or by frames. It doesn't matter if you "think" it's good or if you can beat out a slower njp and you're like "woo hoo you're so wrong because THIS character is slower".

And this is not even the point of the post because that is ONE grievance, Pyro has MANY problems since it was built around that ridiculous fucking teleport. Which is no more. But the variation is there. And it needs help. Point of this thread. Capisce?

First you need to clam the fuck down. You can complain about the NJP all you want, I'm just saying it has worked awesome for me personally. And like I said originally, it doesnt just work on Kung JIn or other NJPs. It works on a majority of d2's, standing normals, some specials, etc.

You act like her njp is slow when it is one of the fastest NJPs in the game. It isnt as good as Quan Chis which is 5f, but it is still the third fastest in the game. Those NJPs are not "safe" against Tanya, who can EX Teleport them on block(Exception being Ferra T.s obviously). Just throwing that out there. There are NJPs with better range but there is only TWO with better frames.

As for your whole rant I didnt want to deconstruct your entire argument because I didnt feel like going through it. I said what I did about NJP because I think that tool is ridiculously strong and couldnt let people say it was bad in good conscience.

Below ill tell you what points in the OP are ill-founded and why.

This is not a buff-beg thread, this is a "state of current character variation" thread because I honestly have no idea how to make this variation better without the ridiculous teleport. It was centered around that move, and now that it's been removed (with good reason), I can't honestly say what to do to Pyro that would make it workable.

This first sentence is hilarious because this entire thread is begging for buffs. The fact you think otherwise is weird. Pyro is in no way centered around the teleport or else it would be the only variation with a teleport. It is centered around fireballs and getting the opponent dusted to make said fireballs even more of a threat.

My current pov on this variation is that it's just not worth using unless you are a stupid loyalist idiot like I am.
And here is why:

1. Tanya's every generic special is unsafe and not worth using.
Drill is bad, all it's good for is catching opponents offguard with but it won't really work against most people because it can be blocked on reaction. It's worse than Mileena's roll because you can get air-to-aired out of it.
Her regular and EX Drill are her best AA option. Obviously you dont want to throw them out in neutral but they are still really good for what they do. They also give her a wakeup 50/50 which no other character in the game has, of course it should be unsafe.
EX Drill is the same thing, it may launch but you cannot do any decent combo damage off of it, and forget ending combos with it to extend them, there is no way you can set up a distance that will make that happen.
20% into a hard knockdown is not great but its not bad at all. You can also do EX Drill 34 dust to get a free dust for 22%. Again, not bad at all.
Splits is bad, all it's good for is a combo ender but even then they get up way too fast for it to be good for any proper okizeme.
It gives a hard knockdown, the last part of this sentence is false. It gives her plenty of opportunity for oki because they are forced to either wakeup, delay, or block.
EX Splits is decent for armouring out of sticky situations.
Its really mainly better for wakeup 50/50s. If you are going to armor out of something why not use dust since it gives fireballs more of a threat and is safe on block?

2. Pyro's specials are rubbish.
Fireballs can be easily evaded and full-combo-run-up-punished once you learn their arc. They are slow to reach across the screen and terrible to recover.
This is semi-true. The high arc fireballs can be punished by run-ins. The regular ones however cannot even be punished by Tanya's EX Tele. They have little to no recovery.
Air Fireballs can be punished on block. You block one, you can full combo punish her.
This is only true if they are about a dash distance away and have a fast punisher with great range like Tanyas F2. Otherwise they can get a free run but cant actually punish you.
EX Fireball doesn't work as a proper combo ender for the most part. For the one bar it costs, all it's good for is absorbing an enemy projectile and even then, you could just block that and not waste meter on this.
Why would you assume it is a good combo ender? Why could it not just be faster fireball that absorbs projectiles and does 20% with dust on? That sounds pretty good to me. Its also not like she has trouble building meter.
Shroud is barely safe on block at -4, but all you can really do after Shroud is block. Not because her d1 is bad, but because her u1 is already in the slower end of the spectrum at i7.
There is no such thing as barely safe. It is safe, end of. After shroud you get a free 1,1,2 string into tele cancel pressure, or you could do EX dust to try and beat anyone who tries to get something started once they block dust. Being -4 in this game means nothing if you have an armored move that they have to respect after it.
3. Tanya's njp is horrible.
For somebody who was advertised to be airborne, (and even though I understand the nerf on teleport) I firmly believe that her air normals could use some adjustment for that role alone.
I've already said my thoughts on this.
4. Suggestion: Air Dash.
This has been discussed in the Tanya community and might be a good solution. Kobu would decidedly be ridiculous with the old teleport back but unless we remove teleport entirely from that variation for only Pyro and Nagi to have it.
Stamina cost for Pyromancer teleports: one teleport counts as one dash. This way it cannot be abused but would still be balanced.
Giving invincible teleports back would be broken for any of the variations. With it she could option select out of certain characters pressure and essentially get out of the corner for free. Her iaTeles are still very good, especially the backwards one if you cancel it with fireball upon landing.
5. Suggestion: Armor on Ex-Air Dash
Not i-Frames because that's dumb as shit, but rather proper armor that can be broken by the same armorbreak properties that every other armored move is countered by.
Again this would be broken no matter what the variation. This would mean she also has the OS mentioned above and also would get a free combo into dust off of it. If you gave he back the invincibility there would be no way to armor break her.

TLR: Most of the flaws you list are either incorrect or not as bad as you make them out to be. Your suggestions would be broken because they could lead to some ridiculous Option Selects like she had pre-patch. The character does not have great zoning but she still has great footsie tools and decent zoning. She is most effective with a hit and run playstyle. Sit back and throw fireballs, when they get in footsie range use f4 or f2 to get in close and get them dusted, then iaBack tele out and cancel into a fireball upon landing which is safe. Then proceed to basically repeat the process. She is super simple and relies on strong footsies to win. There is almost no chance that she would be buffed and there is even less of a chance they would do your suggested buffs because of the pre-patch fiasco. If anything they might remove the recovery on back tele fireball because that was pretty unecessary.

 

[GLoRToR]

First you need to clam the fuck down.

Disagreeing does not come with an emotional state. I don't need to calm down, you need to start stating facts because your feedback is nonsensical.

You can complain about the NJP all you want, I'm just saying it has worked awesome for me personally.

Nice, want to give kitchen tips too?
This thread is about the problems with Pyromancer, not about what I think looks good on me.

And like I said originally, it doesnt just work on Kung JIn or other NJPs. It works on a majority of d2's, standing normals, some specials, etc.

Sure, it works on everything that's slower. That's how this game works. The problem, as I stated it, and my ONLY problem with it, is that she debuted as "the airborne character" yet her njp is not as satisfying as Quan Chi's.

You act like

I don't act, thank you.

her njp is slow when it is one of the fastest NJPs in the game.It isnt as good as Quan Chis which is 5f, but it is still the third fastest in the game. Those NJPs are not "safe" against Tanya, who can EX Teleport them on block(Exception being Ferra T.s obviously). Just throwing that out there. There are NJPs with better range but there is only TWO with better frames.

Its overall use... dude, you're not even reading what I'm saying here just going on about your own talk.
I'll do the same now. I've stopped reading your post. It's not like you are actually contributing to the topic.

Which is still, the issues with Pyromancer.
Tanya by no means needs treatment right now, because there are characters with not a single tournament-viable variation out there, and those should take priority. But eventually when we are looking the rest of the variations, it might be a good idea to look this one up.
I'll keep playing Pyro when I do play mkx.

 

[Rude]

Disagreeing does not come with an emotional state. I don't need to calm down, you need to start stating facts because your feedback is nonsensical.


Nice, want to give kitchen tips too?
This thread is about the problems with Pyromancer, not about what I think looks good on me.


Sure, it works on everything that's slower. That's how this game works. The problem, as I stated it, and my ONLY problem with it, is that she debuted as "the airborne character" yet her njp is not as satisfying as Quan Chi's.


I don't act, thank you.


Its overall use... dude, you're not even reading what I'm saying here just going on about your own talk.
I'll do the same now. I've stopped reading your post. It's not like you are actually contributing to the topic.

Which is still, the issues with Pyromancer.
Tanya by no means needs treatment right now, because there are characters with not a single tournament-viable variation out there, and those should take priority. But eventually when we are looking the rest of the variations, it might be a good idea to look this one up.
I'll keep playing Pyro when I do play mkx.

Your response is full of over-emotional, bitchy, Mean Girl snide remarks when all the dude is trying to do is talk to you about the game.

As far as Tanya's NJP goes, yeah, it's not as good as Quan Chi's but it's not useless. As Zoidberg illustrated, it has a lot of uses.

I also don't think Tanya's fireballs are bad, especially for counter-zoning. I also don't buy your, "one blocked fireball = full combo punish from full-screen" talk. That's overstating it quite a bit. Maybe a character with a very fast tele or an advancing special like Shadow Kick, Electric Fly, or Slide, but not on reaction by the full cast and not always with a full combo.

She can still use her teleport in this variation, it just has a few weaknesses whereas before it had NO weaknesses.

Now, knowing The Glortor style of debate, he'll fly off the handle with another manic response and accuse people of targeting him when that doesn't work.

 

[Zoidberg747]

Disagreeing does not come with an emotional state. I don't need to calm down, you need to start stating facts because your feedback is nonsensical.


Nice, want to give kitchen tips too?
This thread is about the problems with Pyromancer, not about what I think looks good on me.


Sure, it works on everything that's slower. That's how this game works. The problem, as I stated it, and my ONLY problem with it, is that she debuted as "the airborne character" yet her njp is not as satisfying as Quan Chi's.


I don't act, thank you.


Its overall use... dude, you're not even reading what I'm saying here just going on about your own talk.
I'll do the same now. I've stopped reading your post. It's not like you are actually contributing to the topic.

Which is still, the issues with Pyromancer.
Tanya by no means needs treatment right now, because there are characters with not a single tournament-viable variation out there, and those should take priority. But eventually when we are looking the rest of the variations, it might be a good idea to look this one up.
I'll keep playing Pyro when I do play mkx.

So you're going to ignore my whole post saying how a lot of the OP is straight up wrong? Good for you.

Also you said it was slow, those were your exact words. It is 7f and the third fastest njp in the game, saying that it is slow is wrong.

 

[GLoRToR]

So you're going to ignore my whole post saying how a lot of the OP is straight up wrong? Good for you.

Also you said it was slow, those were your exact words. It is 7f and the third fastest njp in the game, saying that it is slow is wrong.

Yes, I'm going to ignore your point of view like you ignore mine. I love how mature we are now.
Yes, I admit to having been wrong about calling it "slow".

But again, for the last time, in simple and fewer words, in case you actually want a mature discussion after all:
1. I know that there are characters that need buffs and Tanya is not one of them. She has a top tier variation.
2. My point is that Pyro needs help. I like this variation, I main this variation. It's no longer as good as it was.
3. I listed problems I see with it. Others also chimed in, they also have a problem with Pyro.
4. You play Kobu so you can't feel the problems. I'm sticking with Pyro, I'm experiencing the issues.
5. I don't want Pyro to be "buffed", I want it "adjusted". Point being I don't want it to be "broken".
6. I know my suggested changes aren't optimal or even desirable, they're ideas to start talking about what could change. If not those then these things etc.

 

[Zoidberg747]

Yes, I'm going to ignore your point of view like you ignore mine. I love how mature we are now.
Yes, I admit to having been wrong about calling it "slow".

But again, for the last time, in simple and fewer words, in case you actually want a mature discussion after all:
1. I know that there are characters that need buffs and Tanya is not one of them. She has a top tier variation.
2. My point is that Pyro needs help. I like this variation, I main this variation. It's no longer as good as it was.
3. I listed problems I see with it. Others also chimed in, they also have a problem with Pyro.
4. You play Kobu so you can't feel the problems. I'm sticking with Pyro, I'm experiencing the issues.
5. I don't want Pyro to be "buffed", I want it "adjusted". Point being I don't want it to be "broken".
6. I know my suggested changes aren't optimal or even desirable, they're ideas to start talking about what could change. If not those then these things etc.

This is the last time I am posting in here. A lot of the stuff you listed in the OP is WRONG. Air fireballs are not full combo punishable anywhere on the screen. A whiffed fireball does not give a full combo run punish anywhere on the screen. Splits gives a hard knowckdown which gives oki. Drill is used as an AA and is not useless. A blocked dust means you are guaranteed a followup string unless they armor out, and then you could follow up with EX dust to catch them. Dust is like her best move.

And once again, with invincible teleports she could Option Select out of almost all pressure in the game. Sometimes for a full combo with EX tele. Your changes will never happen and for good reason.