Poll: Tournament Play + 3 Character Variation Locking

[ChaosTheory]

The point of locking the winner's character is so that the loser can counter-pick and be at the advantage.

But why is that the point? Why do you make a system with artificially created handicaps?

 

[Tony at Home]

If Street Fighter has Ultra locks, then this will have Variation locks.

This.

Not sure why it's a close debate.

I understand that the game is far from release- however we'll still have to have these kind of rules for the opening tournaments, no matter how little we know about the game.

So if we're going to have rules, the safe bet would be to have variation locks. As people who have played the game already stated, changing variations, for all intents and purposes, is like changing character. There's probably more difference between Cyromancer Sub Zero and his other variations than there are between Ryu and Ken.

I mean, we might get the game and find out variation lock isn't needed, but to start out for the first tournaments when we know very little about the game, I'd say the safe bet is to lock variations as well.

 

[Skkra]

Winner can change variation if loser is changing the character or stage.

The tournament player in me says that, without a doubt, it should be variation lock.

However, the character loyalist in me wants to agree with Legion haha. It really depends on just how much the variations change the characters - we obviously dont know the full extent yet. But I imagine that it could really help out with counterpicking (a facet of competitive fighters I personally find horribly boring), especially for lower tier characters.

You love a character and work so hard to learn everything about them... it would be nice that when someone decides to try and beat you simply by counterpicking, you'd be able to change your groove to a variation that could better deal with it.

 

[deathblooms2k4]

The point of locking the winner's character is so that the loser can counter-pick and be at the advantage.

But why is that the point? Why do you make a system with artificially created handicaps?

This is what my question is.

 

[ChaosTheory]

This is what my question is.

I've had the discussion in the past. Best response I remember getting was "it's how every other fighting game does it" or "that's how it's been for a long time."

Really insightful answers.

 

[Brutal Chimney]

I really don't understand the FGC, I constantly hear them complain about comeback mechanics, but they willingly set up the most powerful one themselves

 

[Geochron]

I was always kind of confused why there is character lock if you win in tournaments for newer console games. I know it goes back to the arcades, but not all arcade games were like that. UMK3 and KI for example, let you change characters even if you won the last match, and as far as I know (someone please correct me if I'm wrong), the tournament standard for UMK3 was that you can change characters even if you win. If it all goes back to the arcades, then you would think the idea behind it should just be whatever the game functionality actually allows you to do. Does that mean you can counter pick what the loser selects on the screen? Yeah. He can also counter pick what you pick. And if the character select screen has a timer, you could psych each other out by hovering over characters and variations and not picking them yet, then the character select screen itself becomes a game. Imagine how hilarious it would be if someone got salty because they picked the wrong character because the timer ran out. lol I would love to see that.

 

[Brutal Chimney]

Yeah I can kinda understand why it USED to be the standard but I know several fighters nowadays use hidden select I know for sure MK does, so you wouldn't be doing that cursor dance. Just pick based on who you feel your best chances is and what you think your opponent will chose. that's the only thing that seems fair to me.

 

[ChaosTheory]

I was always kind of confused why there is character lock if you win in tournaments for newer console games. I know it goes back to the arcades, but not all arcade games were like that. UMK3 and KI for example, let you change characters even if you won the last match, and as far as I know (someone please correct me if I'm wrong), the tournament standard for UMK3 was that you can change characters even if you win. If it all goes back to the arcades, then you would think the idea behind it should just be whatever the game functionality actually allows you to do. Does that mean you can counter pick what the loser selects on the screen? Yeah. He can also counter pick what you pick. And if the character select screen has a timer, you could psych each other out by hovering over characters and variations and not picking them yet, then the character select screen itself becomes a game. Imagine how hilarious it would be if someone got salty because they picked the wrong character because the timer ran out. lol I would love to see that.

Well, even to that point about hovering on the select-screen... Mortal Kombat has (typically) a "Hidden Select" feature built into the fucking game.

 

[d3v]

OF COURSE YOU KNOW what youre talking about, please do your research before spreading wrong information. EVO Standard rules

ULTRA STREET FIGHTER IV

• Game version: US Xbox 360
• Game Settings: Versus Mode, 99 Seconds, 2/3 Rounds, 2/3 Games, Edition Select=Off, No Handicap
• The top 8 competitors will play 3/5 Matches.
• If the players do not agree on a stage within 15 seconds, the match will be random stage select.
• Winner may change ultra (only if opponent changes characters), but has to pick ultra first after loser picks character.

TheTetraSpirit has a point. Not every tournament follows EVO standard rules when it comes to certain specific things. For example Texas Showdown does not allow Ultra pick for the winner.

The thing is, switching an ultra does not change the way how a character is fundamentally played. Say ryu switches ultra, he still plays the same. Ken switches ultra, he still plays the same. Akuma switches ultra, he still mostly plays the same. In the case such as sub zero, an ice clone subzero is wayyyy different than hammer subzero and this changes how the character is played completely. Just like how in marvel you CANNOT change your assists if you win because the assists change how the game is played completely

SFIV might not be the best example.

It would be better to look up how things were handled for games where there was an option that did change how a character was played (or their ranking in the tiers), such as SF Alpha 3 or CvS2. Better yet, something like the old Samurai Shodown games with the Slash/Bust selection.

I was always kind of confused why there is character lock if you win in tournaments for newer console games. I know it goes back to the arcades, but not all arcade games were like that. UMK3 and KI for example, let you change characters even if you won the last match, and as far as I know (someone please correct me if I'm wrong), the tournament standard for UMK3 was that you can change characters even if you win. If it all goes back to the arcades, then you would think the idea behind it should just be whatever the game functionality actually allows you to do. Does that mean you can counter pick what the loser selects on the screen? Yeah. He can also counter pick what you pick. And if the character select screen has a timer, you could psych each other out by hovering over characters and variations and not picking them yet, then the character select screen itself becomes a game. Imagine how hilarious it would be if someone got salty because they picked the wrong character because the timer ran out. lol I would love to see that.

This goes back to the original SFII and especially Super Turbo. That game was a known counter pickers game and character lock allowed the loser to counter pick in the case that they were in a highly unfavorable matchup (Super Turbo is notorious for 9:1 matchups).

 

[Geochron]

Well, even to that point about hovering on the select-screen... Mortal Kombat has (typically) a "Hidden Select" feature built into the fucking game.

Oh damn I forgot all about hidden select. That would make no character locks even more interesting.

 

[Brutal Chimney]

So instead of it being 9:1 it becomes 1:9 how is that any better? "tradition" is not a valid reason especially when it hurts the competitive nature of a game

 

[RapZiLLa54]

I'm going to go with variation. You shouldnt be allowed to change anything when you win just like in mk9 you couldn't change from robot sektor/cyrax to human or visa versa.

I think they should make it like picking a dummy play in Madden. You hold down a and it selects it but you can still move through the play book to throw your opponent off.

 

[NRF CharlieMurphy]

I'm not going to say anything here like it is a fact.... i honestly want to talk this out.

We are given a very unique thing here..... where the character itself has a variation tweek. Now we aren't 100% sure right now how it'll actually affect matchups. Some of the variations do seem to change the normals of the character......while others simply add/remove special moves.

Personally I think it is silly that opponents even get to SEE who each other pick.

In any case... I think CHARACTER lock is essential..... but i'm personally a fan of letting someone change the variation if they feel like it.
But then again, i'm a big fan of each player going into the fight blind until the load screen.

 

[d3v]

So instead of it being 9:1 it becomes 1:9 how is that any better? "tradition" is not a valid reason especially when it hurts the competitive nature of a game

9:1's happen, but they're still not the norm in ST, especially in the upper levels of the tier list. The nice thing about ST is that no single top tier lords it over the rest of the cast. Everyone had bad match ups. This meant that everyone actually player at least 2 characters. More importantly, instead of possibly getting counter picked twice. The loser of a match had the chance to even up or even counter pick themselves. The kicker was that doing a hard counter pick risked getting yourself counter picked in the match afterwards. It was this whole mind game that developed around character selection, which was fine with the community, after all, it was accepted that the game began at the select screen.

 

[Phosferrax]

Don't mind Tetra, he doesn't usually know what he's talking about

I'm glad someone else agrees.

 

[d3v]

Just asked around. It seems that for other games with a sub-style/groove select (i.e. Arcana Hearts arcanas, Melty Blood moon phases, Aquapazza assists), you are allowed to change the sub-style/groove but not the character.

 

[Phosferrax]

Character lock, winner picks variation first. It adds more depth to tourney matchs and demands more knowledge whilst allowing room for combating straight up counter picking. Although most people will probably just pick the same character/variation if they win anyway.

 

[Brutal Chimney]

So "fuck logic it's tradition" is the answer I'm noticing....

 

[Tony at Home]

Just asked around. It seems that for other games with a sub-style/groove select (i.e. Arcana Hearts arcanas, Melty Blood moon phases, Aquapazza assists), you are allowed to change the sub-style/groove but not the character.

Never heard of any of those 3 games you mentioned, so just google searched each.

Pretty sure I'm on an FBI watch-list now... thanks for that

 

[d3v]

So "fuck logic it's tradition" is the answer I'm noticing....

It's already been stated. It prevents the loser from getting counter picked while at the same time giving them a chance to adapt and switch up. While it is basically throwing the loser a bone, it does allow for more interesting matches and at times, unorthodox character picks (remember AE2012 loser's semis at EVO 2013 when Infiltration brought out Hakan who you barely ever see in tournaments as a counter to PR Balrog's Boxer).

If you wanted to really stick to tradition, there'd be no character choice at all. We'd do things the old school way where you're locked to one character throughout the tournament (just like how they still do things in Japan).

 

[NRF CharlieMurphy]

If you wanted to really stick to tradition, there'd be no character choice at all. We'd do things the old school way where you're locked to one character throughout the tournament (just like how they still do things in Japan).

omg the bitching this would cause would be on EPIC proportions.

 

[ChaosTheory]

It's already been stated. It prevents the loser from getting counter picked while at the same time giving them a chance to adapt and switch up. While it is basically throwing the loser a bone...

But it prevents the loser from being counter-picked by allowing the loser to counter-pick himself. I just don't understand why there has to be a built-in rule to grant advantage to one player or the other. In any sense.

When players sit down for the first match of a series... where does counter-picking come in? Why does it have to change before match 2, 3, etc.?

And again, it's beside the point in general, but MK specifically has a built-in feature on the select-screen if you don't want your opponent to see which character you select.

 

[STB Sgt Reed]

So "fuck logic it's tradition" is the answer I'm noticing....

I think the point is... to make the fight a more even match. Aka, more hype.

No one wants to watch someone flawless someone twice. The more competitive the match, the more hype it becomes. So if the loser needs a counterpick of Kenshi vs a Sub to have a chance, he has that option.

It started at the cabinets, but I don't think that's why it continued.

 

[d3v]

But it prevents the loser from being counter-picked by allowing the loser to counter-pick himself. I just don't understand why there has to be a built-in rule to grant advantage to one player or the other. In any sense.

When players sit down for the first match of a series... where does counter-picking come in? Why does it have to change before match 2, 3, etc.?

And again, it's beside the point in general, but MK specifically has a built-in feature on the select-screen if you don't want your opponent to see which character you select.

Because, contrary to what most scrubs think. Counter picking is part of the game. You're free to counter pick even at the start of the match (heck, you can even counter pick the whole tournament if you know who the most popular character choice will be, that's how Viscant won MvC3 at EVO 2011). As stated, what we simply want to avoid is a situation where the loser gets counter picked again in the succeeding match. Also, it's not like a counter pick is a free win. There's still a whole mind game involved and other things to think about (such as your counter pick possibly getting you counter picked in the match afterwards).