Match-up Discussion My Black Adam Matchup Chart ( Version 1.07 )

[YOMI MITYEAP]

Qwark28, I got homework atm, but when I get the chance, i'll explain why I got WW 5 5 and Cyborg for sure 5 5, I believe BA has no bad mus at all.

 

[ABACABB]

Explain why. 2nd person I say this to.

DS fights BA pretty well . He controls air and interactables and forces ba to come to him with gunshots. Sword flip punishes regular dive kick at all heights.

 

[Qwark28]

Well, Jailhouse listed at 6-4 for Batgirl back before the Dive Kick Nerf. Now BG can Flying Bat punish a blocked Dive Kick.

I dunno, It's just BA really doesn't have much to stop BG from doing what she wants to do. Both Lightning and Cloud can be Smoke Bombed on reaction, so that makes him very hesitant about tossing those out. Her vortex avoids him using Lightning Cage at all unless she just landed the full corner combo for 50%. And then if it's whiff punished you're dead.

BG's poke of choice (B1) is 1f faster than BA's (B2) and have comparable ranges. BA's 2 is faster but less range.

BA's main advantages are D1 Orbs, D1, Lightning, his backdash mobility, and midscreen meterless damage.

6f D1's prevent BG from continuing offense after a blocked B12, because it checks her. She can't do silly shit like flying bat or MBF3 after it.

BG's J2 beats all of BA's air moves pretty easily.

All in all, counters to BG have to have some of these things

1) Ability to Escape vortex (Aquaman)
2) Armor out the ass to blow through BG's neutral (Bane, Doomsday)
3) Hard to smoke bomb projectiles (SM, NW, BM)
4) Neutral that shuts down BG's neutral and forces her to take risks (SM)
5) GDLK spammable D1 with range (NW)

BA doesn't really have much of that. If both players play solid, BA has to do all the hard guesses.

I'm not saying BG wins free. I'm just saying as a BG player, I don't have any problems doing my thing in this matchup.

Let me point out a couple of errors

Divekick nerf never hurt any matchups, no BA will ever divekick unless it's completely safe.

Comparable ranges isn't enough, B23 reaches farther and is a frametrap, BA also has B1 which is 12f and advantage on block.

113 and B2 throw will always lead into good mixups into half life or a guaranteed 14% from teched throws, 23% from unteched throws.

BA will never lightning strike, black magic will not be done either but it is in no way reactable as the moment you see BA's hand the cloud is active.

BA can't zone, batgirl can't either, except BA punishes her for 48% with 1 bar each time. That leaves us with a neutral game where BA has better normals, more meterless damage and godlike trait cancel pressure into insane crossup mixups and guaranteed throws into trait.

IMO he wins because he outdamages her in the counterzoning battle for one bar, in neutral with no bars, has better frametraps and guaranteed damage out of blockstrings and blockstrings into guaranteed throws as well as mixups of his own that give 32-43% damage if they hit.

 

[Qwark28]

DS fights BA pretty well . He controls air and interactables and forces ba to come to him with gunshots. Sword flip punishes regular dive kick at all heights.

Dude, write points, everything that you just said is wrong.

Write out a paragraph of 2 instead of generalisations.

 

[ColdBoreMK23]

Sinestro explanation please.


AK Pig Of The Hut
WoundCowboy
LEGEND

I broke my back... It's spinal.

 

[Qwark28]

Sinestro explanation please.


I broke my back... It's spinal.

Shackles punish Adam's counterzoning tool, black magic and vice versa.

BA has to work to get in while divekick is not an option when sinestro has meter due to delayed MB fear blast.

Every mistake BA makes gives sinestro trait meter. Thankfully, BA does a lot of damage once he gets in and has great chip, anything in particular you want to know?

 

[ABACABB]

Dude, write points, everything that you just said is wrong.

Write out a paragraph of 2 instead of generalisations.

what is wrong ?
- ds controls interactables and air
- forces ba to come to him , ba cant punish low guns from far
- flip punishes regular divekick
DS just limits BA

 

[4x4lo8o]

BA - Ares is 6-4?

 

[NKZero]

Qwark28. Sinestro beats Adam because Adam is an Arab. Sinestro is a classy English gentleman.

PS. Not racist because I'm a British Arab

Nice chart though. Agree with Sinestro. I actually think he controls the pace of the match as well but BA is BA.

Question: how does Sinestro punish dive kick considering his quicker normals have poor range and his long range b+1 being too slow. Or does it punish? Haven't played the game in a while...

 

[xKhaoTik]

Rico Suave thinks KF goes even with BA. Thoughts?

 

[Qwark28]

what is wrong ?
- ds controls interactables and air
- forces ba to come to him , ba cant punish low guns from far
- flip punishes regular divekick
DS just limits BA

flip punishes badly spaced divekicks.
BA outchips DS and checks him with black magic and lightning anytime DS shoots.

DS does not controls interactibles, if DS is looking to punish BA on reaction to jumping towards an interactible hes distracted.

BA does not have to get in once he gets the lifelead.

6 4 BA.

 

[Qwark28]

Rico Suave thinks KF goes even with BA. Thoughts?

Rico also thinks this character is fine.

I think he beats her 6 4

Better air normals, damage, counterzoning and zoning.

what do you think?

 

[ABACABB]

general m2dave whats ur opinion on ds-ba mu ?

 

[Big Pampering]

Rico Suave thinks KF goes even with BA. Thoughts?

I don't know about that, unless he sees something KF players aren't doing yet. But current known KF tools vs BA is a bad matchup imo.

Also Qwark and other top BA players, I would like to know what you guys think of ricos black adam, is he legit or is he using gimmicks/a lot of punishable stuff, not maximising damage/correct punishes/ not the correct blockstrings/frametraps etc.

 

[Qwark28]

I don't know about that, unless he sees something KF players aren't doing yet. But current known KF tools vs BA is a bad matchup imo.

Also Qwark and other top BA players, I would like to know what you guys think of ricos black adam, is he legit or is he using gimmicks/a lot of punishable stuff, not maximising damage/correct punishes/ not the correct blockstrings/frametraps etc.

He is currently the best BA even though he does not use all of his tools, very good player and that combination show him as the only BA who truly places and makes BA seem broken. BA is not broken but does need some nerfs, Rico so far plays him at the highest possible lvl of right now.

 

[Big Pampering]

He is currently the best BA even though he does not use all of his tools, very good player and that combination show him as the only BA who truly places and makes BA seem broken. BA is not broken but does need some nerfs, Rico so far plays him at the highest possible lvl of right now.

I've noticed that he keeps his game really simple but effective as well and plays really safe. I think black adam is capable of a lot more cheap stuff up close, but he really plays the typical eastcoast defensive style.

 

[RenegadeVA]

snip.

Way to just go: "Hey these are BA's strengths" instead of really focusing on the MU.

1. Divekick nerf meant alot, are you kidding? It went from "Free divekicks at will" to "I need to be able to MB this divekick if I'm doing it randomly" Before, it was HUGE part of his neutral and BA could spam it against BG. Now it's not. Don't just focus on the punish.

2. except that BA's do lightning strike all the time against me. Just like people are still using interactibles against BG. It's a hard habit to break.

3. BG can actually zone fairly well if she wants to. It's more a meter building thing. Dash canceling Bolas and delayed Bolas do a lot to make them more effective. Batarangs are quick and MB U batarangs snipe everything out of the air. Also, the mere threat of smoke bomb makes BG's zone game more viable. It's not great, but it's often better than "hey i can't throw anything anymore".

4. It doesn't matter how much further B23 reaches if it's not faster (it think it's pretty similar in range actually), if it's not superman F2 (quicker AND farther)... then I can deal with it. You do B2 and I do B1, I win.

5. I think you vastly underestimate BG's damage potential, and realize if you guess wrong twice you lose a life bar. You're focusing on one shot/one combo damage when that's not Batgirls goal at all unless she corners you. You're focusing on block strings, because thaty's YOUR game, not BG's. Her game is to hit you. BA's combos resets you completely to neutral, BG's doesn't. When you DO knock her down though, you have to deal with BG's great wakeup options.

6. Also, I just react block low against BA, so his "mixup" is just throwing.

7. BG has complete air superiority. J2 beats everything BA does, and can be confirmed to MB Smokebomb off any hit. He has to backdash. If he blocks it, he has to pushblock her or eat a free 50/50.


I think this match up is pretty even, but I def think how stage selection could tilt it in BG's favor. Especially Plaza.

 

[RenegadeVA]

Interesting how in this particular character forum you choose to do the things I told u we do in order to make a tier list and what I do for zod's placement

And that was Focus on MUs

Jesus Christ what a loon

This is a MU thread. We discuss matchups, not just say "top 2-3 mixups" without any explanations or evidence.

Please stop trying to flame me.

 

[Qwark28]

Way to just go: "Hey these are BA's strengths" instead of really focusing on the MU.

1. Divekick nerf meant alot, are you kidding? It went from "Free divekicks at will" to "I need to be able to MB this divekick if I'm doing it randomly" Before, it was HUGE part of his neutral and BA could spam it against BG. Now it's not. Don't just focus on the punish.

2. except that BA's do lightning strike all the time against me. Just like people are still using interactibles against BG. It's a hard habit to break.

3. BG can actually zone fairly well if she wants to. It's more a meter building thing. Dash canceling Bolas and delayed Bolas do a lot to make them more effective. Batarangs are quick and MB U batarangs snipe everything out of the air. Also, the mere threat of smoke bomb makes BG's zone game more viable. It's not great, but it's often better than "hey i can't throw anything anymore".

4. It doesn't matter how much further B23 reaches if it's not faster (it think it's pretty similar in range actually), if it's not superman F2 (quicker AND farther)... then I can deal with it. You do B2 and I do B1, I win.

5. I think you vastly underestimate BG's damage potential, and realize if you guess wrong twice you lose a life bar. You're focusing on one shot/one combo damage when that's not Batgirls goal at all unless she corners you. You're focusing on block strings, because thaty's YOUR game, not BG's. Her game is to hit you. BA's combos resets you completely to neutral, BG's doesn't. When you DO knock her down though, you have to deal with BG's great wakeup options.

6. Also, I just react block low against BA, so his "mixup" is just throwing.

7. BG has complete air superiority. J2 beats everything BA does, and can be confirmed to MB Smokebomb off any hit. He has to backdash. If he blocks it, he has to pushblock her or eat a free 50/50.


I think this match up is pretty even, but I def think how stage selection could tilt it in BG's favor. Especially Plaza.

BA could never spam DK against batgirl, people just didn't know how to deal with it.

BAs who do lightning strike when they can't are obviously playing the matchup wrong, how is scrubby BAs that don't understand they can be punished contributing to this MU discussion?

And I just told you that BA can counterzone with divekick, that's why he has the move. Do a projectile and get bent for half life.

You must not understand how footsies and spacing works if you don't think range matters.

I'm focusing on blockstrings and big damage because that's what BA can do to batgirl. I'm telling you what he can do in this matchup.

You can't react and block low a 13f sweep and the fact that you think that this is his mixup after orbs means you haven't been following the latest tech for BA.

BA has no reason to jump.

After that post I'd rather discuss this matchup further with @Jailhouse .

 

[M2Dave]

general m2dave whats ur opinion on ds-ba mu ?

Deathstroke fights Black Adam better than most characters, but I think Black Adam still has a small advantage because of his high damage output.

I would General Zod for this match up anyway. Deathstroke is overrated.

Besides, no reason to discuss match ups at this moment. The patch will probably be released very soon, and I highly doubt this character will remain the same.

 

[RenegadeVA]

BA could never spam DK against batgirl, people just didn't know how to deal with it.

BAs who do lightning strike when they can't are obviously playing the matchup wrong, how is scrubby BAs that don't understand they can be punished contributing to this MU discussion?

And I just told you that BA can counterzone with divekick, that's why he has the move. Do a projectile and get bent for half life.

You must not understand how footsies and spacing works if you don't think range matters.

I'm focusing on blockstrings and big damage because that's what BA can do to batgirl. I'm telling you what he can do in this matchup.

You can't react and block low a 13f sweep and the fact that you think that this is his mixup after orbs means you haven't been following the latest tech for BA.

BA has no reason to jump.

After that post I'd rather discuss this matchup further with @Jailhouse .

Lol. And I explained that a Batgirl who dash cancels bolas can't get hit by divekick and then punish. Hell, I'm sure it'd take balls, but at full screen (where he's coming at a lower angle) i think you hold hold it and release it late and snag him out of dive kick altogether. Not to mention MB Batarang will just hit him out of the air if you're feeling that frisky.

My point was is that BG has enough options in her projectiles so that BA has to think a bit more than "ooh, projectile? divekick, free 48%"

And... then he has to jump, ya see?

As for footsies and spacing, yes I understand that range is important. I played CvS2 for 7 years, footsies is king. But it's much less important in this game because walkspeed is so fucking balls that the best way to go somewhere is dashing or doing a move, not walking. So in injustice, the range game is more of an off/on switch as opposed to seeking that perfect max range poke, because it's so difficult to just waltz back and forth out of range.


I get why you focus on black adam's blockstrings and damage for black adam. Those are his strengths. But you can't say "BA has better blockstrings than BG, so he wins. BA does more damage, so he wins." That's not BG's goal.

BG hits you once, you flip a coin (or worse) a couple times, then you may lose the round. She has that going for her. She controls all interactibles, that's pretty good too. If you ever block a jump in, that's a 50/50.

I'm sorry, I'm not going to respect BA's sweep. I'll eat if 3 times, so that the 4th time if I manage to block, you get killed for it. Not scared of 7% compared to the threat of BA's overheads.

I don't think that's his "mixup", he's not a "mixup" character in the sense that Batgirl is. It's just not something I worry about in the fight.

Whatever, don't take it from me. I'm only saying it's 5-5. Have jailhouse or sonicfox come in and tell you they think it's 6-4 Batgirl or something. Gotta be a "top player" to have a "top opinion".

 

[Qwark28]

Lol. And I explained that a Batgirl who dash cancels bolas can't get hit by divekick and then punish. Hell, I'm sure it'd take balls, but at full screen (where he's coming at a lower angle) i think you hold hold it and release it late and snag him out of dive kick altogether. Not to mention MB Batarang will just hit him out of the air if you're feeling that frisky.

My point was is that BG has enough options in her projectiles so that BA has to think a bit more than "ooh, projectile? divekick, free 48%"

And... then he has to jump, ya see?

As for footsies and spacing, yes I understand that range is important. I played CvS2 for 7 years, footsies is king. But it's much less important in this game because walkspeed is so fucking balls that the best way to go somewhere is dashing or doing a move, not walking. So in injustice, the range game is more of an off/on switch as opposed to seeking that perfect max range poke, because it's so difficult to just waltz back and forth out of range.


I get why you focus on black adam's blockstrings and damage for black adam. Those are his strengths. But you can't say "BA has better blockstrings than BG, so he wins. BA does more damage, so he wins." That's not BG's goal.

BG hits you once, you flip a coin (or worse) a couple times, then you may lose the round. She has that going for her. She controls all interactibles, that's pretty good too. If you ever block a jump in, that's a 50/50.

I'm sorry, I'm not going to respect BA's sweep. I'll eat if 3 times, so that the 4th time if I manage to block, you get killed for it. Not scared of 7% compared to the threat of BA's overheads.

I don't think that's his "mixup", he's not a "mixup" character in the sense that Batgirl is. It's just not something I worry about in the fight.

Whatever, don't take it from me. I'm only saying it's 5-5. Have jailhouse or sonicfox come in and tell you they think it's 6-4 Batgirl or something. Gotta be a "top player" to have a "top opinion".

You don't have to be a top player. You just have to be able to read that sweep is not the mixup I talked about after 3 damn posts and that divekick projectiles on reaction does catch the 15f or so of vulnerable dash cancelling. And you're not gonna air to air then smokebomb like you said if he does instant air divekick. You're not talking sense. This is why I'm not gonna discuss this with you but with Jailhouse.

You make fair points but don't really know how to discuss matchups.

 

[G4S Killin Natzees]

You don't have to be a top player. You just have to be able to read that sweep is not the mixup I talked about after 3 damn posts and that divekick projectiles on reaction does catch the 15f or so of vulnerable dash cancelling. And you're not gonna air to air then smokebomb like you said if he does instant air divekick. You're not talking sense. This is why I'm not gonna discuss this with you but with Jailhouse.

This is what happens when people beat random BA's online and think they know the matchup.

 

[Qwark28]

I've noticed that he keeps his game really simple but effective as well and plays really safe. I think black adam is capable of a lot more cheap stuff up close, but he really plays the typical eastcoast defensive style.

BA himself is a simple character. He doesn't use his dirt to the max at all though. I have found a lot of setups with guaranteed inescapable damage yet everytime I saw him go for the setup he did the wrong thing always.

 

[RenegadeVA]

divekick projectiles on reaction does catch the 15f or so of vulnerable dash cancelling.

Let's just do some maths here.

BG's bola cancel->forward dash is about 30 frames total to the completion of the dash. This is tested b/c I was trying out other vortex options w/ her, and she can't be Lex charged after hit B2D3->bolacancel->forward dash. I think 21 bolacancel forward dash worked too, but I'd have to test it again to say it with certainty.

Backdash is a little slower, but she's moving back instead of forward, so hey that's more frames of travel.

Far boot stomp is 17 frames startup, plus travel time. Jumping diagonal is 4 frames start up. So you're already at 21 at least. How good's your reaction time?

Oh yeah:

You can't react and block low a 13f sweep

So, let's give your reaction time at 14f. That's 35 frames, not including travel time (which isn't something they give data for).

So I just don't buy your Instant Air divekick blowing up dash canceled bolas unless you're doing it in anticipation or already jumping... but oh yeah:

BA has no reason to jump.

After that post I'd rather discuss this matchup further with @Jailhouse .

I'm done here. FYI: if you put up a MU chart and specifically ask for detailed input, don't be dismissive of what other people have to say. People are GOING to disagree with you. That's the point of the thing.

I'm not coming at this from the angle "hurr durr BA sucks" obviously he's really great. I just don't think BG has a disadvatage in this fight and other BG's don't think so either.