MKII Tier List Discussion

[Dyzvhtynzal]

@ Subo

i try to write sinister but wacky stuff. check out FOR THOSE WHO LIKE TO WRITE thread. yes, i like lovecraft. especially The Shadow Out Of Time. Awesome youtube make of it with some old guy.

If we did play Shang vs Sub, i'd give myself 15-20 wins. I think Shang and several other characters are trickier due to wacky hitboxes or some shit and accelerated gameplay. If you got a momentum streak you'd get me a bit more i think on mkak then i would you. mostly i'd stop caring either way by match 10, so who the hell knows. i dont understand how people can play the same match more than 5 times in a row let alone 50. it's probably why players like Caldwell and Jay are so fucking formidable.

 

[mortal_jason]

Liu might not be able to jump kick Jax, but couldn't he use iaf as a defense in this situation? iaf would be used to put kang in sweep range after the gp ends or some other advantageous position. i'll agree with zaq for now unless mgp, if done right, cannot be avoided.what even is the quickest move that is the most difficult to avoid? can you make a case for perfectly executed dive kicks by Lao?if mk2 is a game of defense like certain players claim, anyone who attacks first is at a disadvantage unless the attack is actually a disguised defense against something else. risk/reward system makes certain characters avoid using certain moves. maybe i'm wrong, but this is why i argue tier is impossible when perfect gameplay is considered. i also argue it's impossible for imperfect players but this is more difficult to explain.

Another thing... by introducing perfect AI gameplay you also balance the game perfectly as it doesn't matter what character is chosen, what matters is who makes the first mistake.

Liu's IAF will not ever hit Jax when he Ground Pounds.
Liu can use a barrage of IAFs to inch closer to Jax, but he risks getting hit by Ground Pounds (or Jax's HK).
Anytime Liu shoots a standing High FB or an air FB/IAF, he can get hit by a perfectly timed Ground Pound.
The timing is difficult- akin to Ground Pounding under Mileena's Sai. But when you get it down, Liu and Mileena are a lot easier to deal with.

If you perfectly controlled the AI for each character, bottom tier would still get pummeled by top tier.

I'd say Liu's Bike Kick and Mileena's Roll are the fastest moves, but I can't say for sure.

Whoever attacks first may be at a disadvantage, but a balance of aggression and defense is what makes the best players.
The game is about more than just defense.
However if we're talking about AI, they could counter everything instantly. It's really not a good way to measure the game.

 

[mortal_jason]

@ Subo

i try to write sinister but wacky stuff. check out FOR THOSE WHO LIKE TO WRITE thread. yes, i like lovecraft. especially The Shadow Out Of Time. Awesome youtube make of it with some old guy.

If we did play Shang vs Sub, i'd give myself 15-20 wins. I think Shang and several other characters are trickier due to wacky hitboxes or some shit and accelerated gameplay. If you got a momentum streak you'd get me a bit more i think on mkak then i would you. mostly i'd stop caring either way by match 10, so who the hell knows. i dont understand how people can play the same match more than 5 times in a row let alone 50. it's probably why players like Caldwell and Jay are so fucking formidable.

Scorpangel and I- Kitana vs Jax 160 matches.
LOL... you play a match 160 times in a row and you learn A LOT.

 

[mortal_jason]

I read one of you guys talking about people doing better with characters considered low-tier vs playing a high-tier... I cannot for the life of me use Kabal or H.Smoke in UMK3 effectively... They are just not my playstyle I guess. I prefer the Kitana/Sub/Liu type of character.

Everyone has their favorites. You should definitely play with who you like.
It's sad when people ONLY use top tier because they always want the best shot at winning.
Personally, I'm more comfortable with Reptile and Cage than Lao, Liu and Jax.
There are certain matches I'm more likely to win with those bottom tier, than if I used the big boys.
That doesn't mean tier doesn't matter though.
It just means my Reptile and Cage are more skilled than my Lao, Liu, or Jax

 

[Dyzvhtynzal]

@ Jay
?!
any 'perfectly controlled AI character' wouldn't make a move. the result of any character doing such would be a loss.

 

[Dyzvhtynzal]

Tier is fallacy. You either have a player who knows how to engage an opponent, or you don't. Every advantage a specific character holds can be negated with knowledge of how the character is used. So, lack of understanding or unfamiliarity with an opponent materializes as 'tier.' There's no such thing. Tier is the fabricated excuse of the uninitiated or the disrespectful, a concept true challengers should never accept. LOL@ those held as 'elite.' Those who have lost to them just don't know their ways well, or care to.

 

[mortal_jason]

Tier is fallacy. You either have a player who knows how to engage an opponent, or you don't. Every advantage a specific character holds can be negated with knowledge of how the character is used. So, lack of understanding or unfamiliarity with an opponent materializes as 'tier.' There's no such thing. Tier is the fabricated excuse of the uninitiated or the disrespectful, a concept true challengers should never accept. LOL@ those held as 'elite.' Those who have lost to them just don't know their ways well, or care to.

Well that's just total bullshit, because the best Reptile players ever will never come close to going even with the best Jax/Mileena players.

 

[mortal_jason]

@ Jay
?!
any 'perfectly controlled AI character' wouldn't make a move. the result of any character doing such would be a loss.

No human can ever play like the AI. They "know" what's coming IMMEDIATELY when their opponent does it.
So it's kind of irrelevant who the best AI controlled character would be.
It's fun to discuss though.

 

[Dyzvhtynzal]

Even how? After 2 matches? After 4? When? Obviously, the best Reptile players didn't know their opponents. Everyone is predictable, otherwise you would never win a match.

At least agree tier doesnt matter under perfect AI conditions? Jay?

 

[mortal_jason]

Even how? After 2 matches? After 4? When? Obviously, the best Reptile players didn't know their opponents. Everyone is predictable, otherwise you would never win a match.

At least agree tier doesnt matter under perfect AI conditions? Jay?

In a 50 set of the best Mileenas vs the best Reptiles, Mileena will win AT LEAST 35-15, probably more like 45-5.
How can anyone say there's no tier looking at that?
Mileena beats Reptile in every aspect of the game, except for roundhouse.

Tier still matters under perfect AI conditions.
If Jax does MGPs, he would demolish many characters just by doing that.
Give me Jax under perfect AI conditions and I would destroy any character without a doubt, except for Mileena because she can roll through Ground Pounds.

 

[Dyzvhtynzal]

If Milenna can roll under gps, how does Jax hit her then?

 

[mortal_jason]

If Milenna can roll under gps, how does Jax hit her then?

He just can't Ground Pound until she does something, or AI Mileena would Roll him.
Even with using AI at their best, I think the game would be just like it normally is for top tier:

Mileena gives Jax the most trouble
Jax gives Liu the most trouble
Liu gives Mileena the most trouble

 

[Dyzvhtynzal]

LOL, that's what i'm saying no perfectly played character would move until the other did. Whoever performs a move first will always lose.
I WAS wrong about tier in one sense. It seems real when you have two similarly skilled opponents. If one opponent is vastly superior than the other, however, tier vanishes. I'd say that, since no player is 'hyper elite', tier seems like a reality. What would you think Jay if someone started consistently defeating your Kitana with Reptile because they mastered his invisibility and forced you to make match-ending mistakes? You can't say it's impossible. You can only say you've never faced such an opponent.

If that opponent surfaced, would that make Reptile High Tier then?

 

[Dyzvhtynzal]

Maybe i should put it this way...Does a character's skill set dictate his/her rank, or is this decided by how well a player can potentially use the skill set? Again, if it's the latter, would Reptile become High Tier since he can be used to defeat your Kitana over and over again?

ZAQ submitted that tier is about the character and player skill isn't factored in until later. The problem i have with that now is that the player/character is intertwined. You can't prove Milenna is the best until she is used for example so you can never determine tier based on a character's potential alone.

 

[Dyzvhtynzal]

If tier is so obvious, why is there not one absolute, universally accepted list? If one character is better than another there'd be a clear hierarchy. This is not the case. Tier is opinion.

 

[mortal_jason]

LOL, that's what i'm saying no perfectly played character would move until the other did. Whoever performs a move first will always lose.
I WAS wrong about tier in one sense. It seems real when you have two similarly skilled opponents. If one opponent is vastly superior than the other, however, tier vanishes. I'd say that, since no player is 'hyper elite', tier seems like a reality. What would you think Jay if someone started consistently defeating your Kitana with Reptile because they mastered his invisibility and forced you to make match-ending mistakes? You can't say it's impossible. You can only say you've never faced such an opponent.

If that opponent surfaced, would that make Reptile High Tier then?

That's why controlling AI is just a discussion point, not a reality of MK2 play.

Tier never disappears. Tier IS.
If my Reptile destroys someone's Mileena 9-1, it just shows I am the better player.
Because Mileena should never lose that.
It doesn't make an argument for Reptile being top tier (unless I'm beating Insane_Niki's Mileena 9-1 or something- which would never happen).

No one would ever consistantly defeat my Kitana with Reptile without lag.
It's just not possible.
Why not?
Because Kitana is a much stronger character than Reptile.
Yes Invisibility is the way to win with Reptile, but Kitana (especially mine) has many ways of hitting him out of it.
IAF throws keep Reptile from getting an advantage with projectiles.

The fact is, at my best I am using Kitana to her full potential.
If I faced a Reptile being used at his full human potential, I would still win just because she is stronger than Reptile.
Her sweep, jab, and huge damage outputs are all better than his.

What tier does, is it shows you the handicap of every match-up.
So when an elite Mileena plays an average Reptile, Reptile has no chance to win.
But when it's the elite's Reptile vs the average player's Mileena, the scales are evened up.
I know that's what you're trying to say is that player's skill levels affect the handicap of a match, which is true.
But it doesn't change the tier itself.
Handicap and tier are 2 different things.

 

[Dyzvhtynzal]

That there might be someone out there that can defeat your Kitana consistently with Reptile is not impossible. You can't prove that.

 

[mortal_jason]

If tier is so obvious, why is there not one absolute, universally accepted list? If one character is better than another there'd be a clear hierarchy. This is not the case. Tier is opinion.

Because people don't play at high enough levels to back up their tier opinions.

The tier list is pretty set in stone if you ask any elite player that uses all characters and plays on PS3.

HIGH TIER

1: Mileena
2. Jax
3. Liu Kang

MID TIER

4. Kung Lao
5. Kitana
6. Shang Tsung

LOW MID TIER
7. Raiden
8. Baraka
9. Scorpion

BOTTOM TIER
10. Johnny Cage
11. Sub-Zero
12. Reptile

An elite might move those players around some within their set tier section, but very rarely would you find fighters being argued out of their tier sections.
For example Caldwell would probably switch Scorpion and Baraka around.
But for the most part if you have played the game at the highest levels, you understand that this is how MK2 is.

 

[mortal_jason]

That there might be someone out there that can defeat your Kitana consistently with Reptile is not impossible. You can't prove that.

I'm not saying "it's not possible" to be arrogant.
I say it because I know MK2 back and front.

And actually I prove it every time I play an elite Reptile and demolish them with Kitana.
It is not possible for any Reptile to win 10-0 or 9-1 against the greatest Kitanas.

 

[Dyzvhtynzal]

If it's not impossible, then Reptile can be 'top tier.' Correct?All you 'proved' was that you're a better player, not that Kitana > Reptile.
Then you said it's not possible again. LOL, make up your mind.

 

[Dyzvhtynzal]

Maybe we can just say that tier cannot be totally proven and leave it at that. Proponents of tier and antitierists are both correct. Somehow, i think a metaphorical, philosophical argument can end this, but i'm unfamiliar with such at the moment.I'll add that, those strictly adhering to the idea of 'tier' are usually more successful at defeating opponents who believe in its nonexistence.

 

[Dyzvhtynzal]

Fuck it, we can dig deeper. The act of observing light under certain conditions changes it from a wave to a particle. (that double slit experiment). There are physicists who believe that just searching for smaller and smaller pieces of matter makes their observation inevitable. (forget what that's called.) What's my point? Let me have a few more drinks and I'll get back to you.

 

[Dyzvhtynzal]

OK. That's better. So, if light can simultaneouly be a particle and wave, tier can be true and false. Makes me wonder if everything can be both.

 

[mortal_jason]

OK. That's better. So, if light can simultaneouly be a particle and wave, tier can be true and false. Makes me wonder if everything can be both.

I think you should smoke less pot

 

[Dyzvhtynzal]

Pfffffffft. And i can argue that you should smoke more.