MKII Tier List Discussion

[Dyzvhtynzal]

It appears impressive on the surface, but I could say Mike outplayed you when you lost and you outplayed him when he lost. And the fact that you let yourself get hit with a tremendous corner combination suggests everything but 'outplay.'

I'm going to try to tear down my theory later today. I think I make very good points. You guys can pose questions too. I am interested.

I'm also interested in finding out what would happen if Jay and Mike mirrored every character. What would those results tell us?

 

[Konqrr]

Oh dear lord...

Ivan Ooze disproves the "tiers don't exist" theory. While I agree with @Dyzvhtynzal for the most part... tiers DO exist.

 

[Dyzvhtynzal]

Okay lol, if i had to go against myself i'd say by setting the condition that perfect play results in no tiers, i automatically make tier exist since no one plays perfectly.
i should also say then that one character has got to be better than another since each is different with some having more favorable traits than others.
i don't think jay and mike's scorpion/milenna test is conclusive, but it says something. if successive tests got the same results or similar, then sure, we have something then.

i can't deny the worst matchups look like they prove tier exists either. i'll have to read ivan's stuff.

 

[Dyzvhtynzal]

I think my biggest problem is I can show no proof of elites with lowtier defeating elites with high tier convincingly. This is bad for my position lol. I'll keep thinking about it. Maybe there's a way out.

 

[mortal_jason]

It appears impressive on the surface, but I could say Mike outplayed you when you lost and you outplayed him when he lost. And the fact that you let yourself get hit with a tremendous corner combination suggests everything but 'outplay.'

I'm going to try to tear down my theory later today. I think I make very good points. You guys can pose questions too. I am interested.

I'm also interested in finding out what would happen if Jay and Mike mirrored every character. What would those results tell us?

Mirrors are a totally different story. And in theory they should all end up 5-5 matches when 2 elites play them.
Though of course, everyone has their best and worst fighters.
So there would be some varying, and it would probably come down to who just played better that night.

Speaking of corners.... the ninjas have no real options if Mileena, Jax or Liu run to and sit in a corner.
This is a cheap and cowardly way to play top tier, but very effective.
And is just another reason top tier destroys bottom tier.

3 years ago btbb and I did 10 matches each in a set of Mileena vs Liu.
Our Mileenas beat our Lius 9-1, the same exact score as Mike and I's Mileena vs Scorpion 20 set.
But the difference there was, as we readily admitted afterwards, our Lius needed some work and both of us were way more comfortable with Mileena.
Put me against Scorpangel's Liu though, and rarely in a set would I be able to beat his Liu 9-1 with Mileena.
So again, for this tier, I theorized the best player of that character vs the best player of another character (I.E. Insane_Niki's Mileena vs btbb's Raiden).

Maybe it would be a better tier list if I put the elite player's name next to the character they are "in theory" representing.
Then you could say:

"Let's see... Scorpangel's Kang, best ever Liu. Ok I wanna know how Liu matches up with Cage. Real_Talk's Cage... best ever Cage, ok.
Oh look that's a crazy unfair match because when the 2 best play, Liu still wins it 8-2."

 

[mortal_jason]

I think my biggest problem is I can show no proof of elites with lowtier defeating elites with high tier convincingly. This is bad for my position lol. I'll keep thinking about it. Maybe there's a way out.

I think most people would agree I am 1 of the greatest Cage and Reptile players of alltime.
And I assure you vs the very best top tier, I could only win 3 out of 10 AT BEST.

I say it from experience.
I LOVE a good challenge.
So when top tier dick riders like Niki and Scorpangel sat there picking Mil Jax and Liu for 100 matches, I would use low tier a lot just to see if it was possible to win.
Believe me, if my elite low tier loses 0-10, 1-9, or 2-8 vs elite top tier... that particular match-up is totally unbalanced.

 

[Dyzvhtynzal]

Okay. I think I'm comfortable with saying that a Tier List couldn't exist for perfect players (theoretical) but does exist since players are imperfect (actual).

I still want to tackle the idea of an elite using a lower-tiered character more sucessfully than a higher-tiered character to defeat an elite that's using a high or top-tiered character. What does this indicate? At first, I thought it might mean that the rank of a low-tiered character was effectively increased, but, the more I think about it, I'm compelled to say that this is false. If an elite player chooses Reptile over Kung Lao against an elite Kitana and wins more using Reptile than he would with Kung Lao, then we might be able to say that the player either never used Kung Lao before, or doesn't know how to. If we agree with this, then character rank on the tier list never changes and my statement that rank can be increased or decreased is wrong.

 

[Sub0's-Icy-Balls]

@Dyzvhtynzal

I only have MKAK, I'm on pretty much everynight after 9pm pacific time. And I actually agree with most of your points, shit I'm Sub0's Icy Balls for christ's sake. I invented destroying top tier with low tier!!!!! I get 2nd and 3rd place in tournaments using my Low Tiered Sub all the time so there's definitely something to what your saying.

@Jason
I kid about your sister! She's a solid player for sure and I love that both of you guys play! I tried to train my fiance but she lost interest : ( and I have taken her ass out of a tournament too!!!!!!!!!!

 

[Sub0's-Icy-Balls]

actually, sorry to hijack this thread as I think Dyzvhtynzal makes really good points, but how long did your sis take to be competitive? Did she play as a child with you and have a base already? Or did you just start her from scratch? And did you just destroy her until she got good or what?
and Jason, who is this Dyzvhtynzal fellow? He has OG MK2 so he's obviously been playing longer than me, does he enter tournaments? Is he good? Like good enough to win 1 in 50 vs my cheap ass run to the corner morph into Jax when I don't have the life lead Shang?

 

[Sub0's-Icy-Balls]

there isn't much in MK2 more infuriating than Kangs instant fireballs! And your correct, Kang would be unstoppable if played like that. Just try and beat Culongy's cheap IAFireballs with Jax, never going to happen!

 

[Dyzvhtynzal]

@Subo

Keep your money and take your fiancée out to dinner instead.

 

[Dyzvhtynzal]

I think it would be interesting Jay/Zaq if you could chart/diagram the best, most reliable moves to consider when trying to win using low-tier VS top-tier. What can Scorpion really use against Kang other than calculated sweeps? What about Subzero VS Milenna?

 

[Sub0's-Icy-Balls]

Will do! But I'd still enjoy playing a 50 set of that match vs you just to see the outcome!

and I'd be interested in that chart too! I think the real key to beating top tier with bottom are well timed sweeps and jabs, and only using special moves as a fake, or to capitalize on a mistake. There's definitely something to that! I will join this anti-tierist movement!

 

[Dyzvhtynzal]

Ha. We just started a cult. Adjust the title under your name to show you care.

 

[Dyzvhtynzal]

Excellent. Now let's make what others would call a fucked up belief system that can be defended with some clever manuvering. As anti-tierists we have to accept and embrace...
1) Tier is an illusion. (It has to be since complete mastery of a character is impossible.)
2) Elite players cannot exist. (Only personal experience with an opponent does.)
3) The game is perfectly balanced. (Some tactics are still unknown.)

Lol, this seems like a terrific start.

 

[Sub0's-Icy-Balls]

so true! Everytime I play new player, I usually just give up a round to feel them out! And even these so called "elite" players have always said that what makes them "elite" is the ability to do new things to mess with their opponents heads, as an anti tierist we should strive to see these tactics and shut them down as they happen.

 

[mortal_jason]

actually, sorry to hijack this thread as I think Dyzvhtynzal makes really good points, but how long did your sis take to be competitive? Did she play as a child with you and have a base already? Or did you just start her from scratch? And did you just destroy her until she got good or what?
and Jason, who is this Dyzvhtynzal fellow? He has OG MK2 so he's obviously been playing longer than me, does he enter tournaments? Is he good? Like good enough to win 1 in 50 vs my cheap ass run to the corner morph into Jax when I don't have the life lead Shang?

Dyzvhtnzal is Ththuvhul- he changed his name for some reason?
He will definitely beat you more than 1 out of 50. You guys will probably go pretty even in Sub vs Shang.

My sister started playing MK2 around age 6 LOL.
She grew up playing against me, as she was the only one I really had to play against.
She could be elite but she doesn't have enough interest/can't control her rage.
It is really fun to watch her killing guys online though!
Sometimes she surprises me how good she is especially with fighters she doesn't often use.

 

[mortal_jason]

I think it would be interesting Jay/Zaq if you could chart/diagram the best, most reliable moves to consider when trying to win using low-tier VS top-tier. What can Scorpion really use against Kang other than calculated sweeps? What about Subzero VS Milenna?

Just look up in the individual match-up threads on here to see.
I wrote pretty good strategy guides for each match-up.

 

[mortal_jason]

there isn't much in MK2 more infuriating than Kangs instant fireballs! And your correct, Kang would be unstoppable if played like that. Just try and beat Culongy's cheap IAFireballs with Jax, never going to happen!

Jax is the best character to beat his Liu with!

 

[mortal_jason]

MK2Prince would be an example of someone using a low tier character that could beat high level players using high tier.
Once he was invisible his reads were ridiculous. He truly knew how to change up his strategy and played Rep as a completely different character that was very difficult to even chip once he had momentum, unless you had a char like Mileena.
---

Tier lists have more to do with the characters ability and nothing at all to do with the specific players ability.

The only way players are considered is when 'human ability' comes into play. (Which has nothing to do with individual players, but players in general)
This is when something is technically possible within the rules of the game, but is extremely unlikely to be executed consistently and is not considered a viable option in that characters gameplay.

Liu Kang is the best character in MK2 using strict rules in MK2 without factoring in human ability. (Assume you were to code AI to control him)
He literally has an answer for almost everything vs every character, but the level of execution is much higher than that of Jax or Mileena and his window of opportunity for him to use that toolset is much smaller.

Versus most characters he would only have to create a relentless barrage of air fireballs and control the entire match.
When they are forced to attack him they are put into an extremely imbalanced risk/reward scenario (air or ground).

The reason he is not #1 on the tier list is because most players cannot perform iAF's at the lowest opportunity consistently while charging LK, while being prepared to uppercut or doing the bike kick infinite on command.
.

I've played MK2Prince a few sets, beat him pretty good in randoms.
We had some epic matches for sure.
I don't remember his Reptile being that incredible, but his Lao certainly was!

In any event, even elite players using low tier, will not consistently beat elite top tier.
Never.
Oh sure we'll get a win here and there.
But the match is always in the hands of the player using top tier.
It's theirs to win or lose.
The bottom tier player has to play perfectly and hope the top tier player makes some mistakes.

When looking at a tier you have to consider what that character is capable of, yes.
And when you use the greatest players controlling those fighters as examples, it gives you some basis to judge.

I agree that Liu has the potential to be super wicked.
And no one really uses him to his full potential outside of Scorpangel.
However Jax is the best character in MK2 if we're coding AI to control him.
Why?
Because he can Ground Pound under all of Liu's Instant Air Fireballs and Mileena's Sai spam.
I don't even have to make any other argument, because the Ground Pound ends any hope of Liu or Mileena being #1 in MK2 if we're using AI to control them.
Jax has the answer for everything- but he is probably the hardest character in MK2 to perfect.
Especially in online delay lag, Jax is clunky and difficult to precisely time counters/moves.

 

[Dyzvhtynzal]

Yeah Jay, figured you mention that thread. Wasn't there in a while.Changed name to celebrate the creation of a new story character I'm wrapping up. Ththuvhul was actually the name I gave to a spaceship. Dyzvhtynzal is the evolution of a god I called Kamazikma from another wacky tale. Workin on a pantheon. Now back to MK2.

 

[mortal_jason]

Players don't play forever and Prince was playing back in 2003 when most of the PSN guys were not. I'm not going to argue who's better, because it was two different generations of the same game. You'd probably think a lot more highly of his gameplay if you played him while he was active.
Right, I agree bottom tier characters are bad. And I hate using the low tier in this game. Baraka especially. Hopefully that rom hacker knows what he is doing.


Well you are certainly welcome to believe what you want about the matchup(s).
But if I had to make a bet on it, I would put my money on the character with the high, ground and low projectiles, with a bike kick infinite and 100% combos vs those 15% damage specials and 50% damage combos.

I played MK2Prince last year on ps3 a bunch of times. He obviously knew what he was doing and wasn't rusty.
I had a lot of fun playing him! And he was a cool guy too.
He was an incredible player for sure. You must have played him before (10 years ago?) to speak so highly of him.
But you need to come on PS3 so the current generation of players can give you a run for your money
There's a reason Dookie made a thread saying Caldwell and I had taken the game to another level....

Baraka's not that bad! His aggressive capabilities are great in the right match-up.
Plus #8 on the tier... he can hold his own.

Well for this theoretical on who is #1 if controlled by the AI....
If Jax never jumps except when Liu does a Low FB, he can't get 100% combo-ed by Liu.
Basically it would be a standstill because whatever one did, the other could easily counter.
However, Jax forces Liu to get jumpy w MGPs, AND Liu cannot jump kick Jax while in his Ground Pound animation.
Advantage Jax.
You have to remember I'm not some average player that rarely plays.
I'm a top player that has played for 20 years.
I've played each match-up vs every imaginable level opponent.
Liu is a pretty easy match for Jax.
If he were controlled by AI to his absolute max, he would be unstoppable.

Mileena vs Jax at their absolute max would be interesting though.
I guess that for sure would be at a standstill because if he did a Ground Pound, she could Roll without getting hit.
But if she Sai-ed at all, he could Ground Pound and hit her.
Fun to discuss!

 

[Dyzvhtynzal]

Liu might not be able to jump kick Jax, but couldn't he use iaf as a defense in this situation? iaf would be used to put kang in sweep range after the gp ends or some other advantageous position. i'll agree with zaq for now unless mgp, if done right, cannot be avoided.what even is the quickest move that is the most difficult to avoid? can you make a case for perfectly executed dive kicks by Lao?if mk2 is a game of defense like certain players claim, anyone who attacks first is at a disadvantage unless the attack is actually a disguised defense against something else. risk/reward system makes certain characters avoid using certain moves. maybe i'm wrong, but this is why i argue tier is impossible when perfect gameplay is considered. i also argue it's impossible for imperfect players but this is more difficult to explain.

Another thing... by introducing perfect AI gameplay you also balance the game perfectly as it doesn't matter what character is chosen, what matters is who makes the first mistake.

 

[Sub0's-Icy-Balls]

ahhhhh, I should've known it was Ththuvhul, and yeah, no way I would beat you 50-0! Do you write some kind of Lovecraft-ian fan fiction or something? I always dug Lovecraft!

 

[Konqrr]

I read one of you guys talking about people doing better with characters considered low-tier vs playing a high-tier... I cannot for the life of me use Kabal or H.Smoke in UMK3 effectively... They are just not my playstyle I guess. I prefer the Kitana/Sub/Liu type of character.