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General/Other - Liu Kang Liu Kang Dragon's Fire & Flame Fist General Discussion

XBlades

XBlades

To Achieve, You must Believe
im not going to lie... but i was one of those that would fish for counter hits after f213 EX hands into parry lol now thats out the window!
 
ImAura

ImAura

Ironic Irony
Going a little deeper: F213 SF F213 WP, F213 SF F44 WP, and F213 SF B2 are all true block strings. It seems F213 SF is about +15 on block. Though there seems to be a gap between the last hit of WP and another special cancel. The special WP alone is -16, but when canceled with DR is only -2, leaving room for a parry or a DW. Depending on the character though Lui Kaing can be punished for whatever option he does with WP. For example when Kung Lao interrupts Lui Kang's WP to DW with an ex spin they trade. Reptile goes through WP to DW with his ex slide, but punishes WP to DR, and Sub Zero phases through Lui Kang whether he cancels WP into DR or DW. Now for a character like Kung Jin, Lui Kang will get full combo punished for his WP options, but timing for all of these is rather strict. This is the research I've done so far & I suggest going through the cast to see Lui Kang's best options against each character. Hope this isn't already known THIS FAST!
 
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Ayane

Noob
Yup! And to some chars like Cassie they can just do like 1/d3>flip kick or EX flip kick to break his armor. I think Kano can just upball no matter what you do. Tanya should just be able to teleport for free and either get pressure or a punish depending on what option the Liu chose at the end of WP. Just doesn't seem like it can be as solid as DF. At least in terms of pressure and chip.
 
HGTV Soapboxfan

HGTV Soapboxfan

"Always a Pleasure"
One pretty obvious tool I've been using is just fwd44~SF into grab. Based on the estimate that fwd44~SF is plus 4 your opponent will obviously be hesitant to let go off block, netting you an easy 14 percent. The other option is to just go for a block string like fwd213~WP which has the plus of meter building but does a little less damage overall and depending on the character you have to play the guessing game of what special am I going to cancel into.
 
ImAura

ImAura

Ironic Irony
Ayane said:
Just doesn't seem like it can be as solid as DF. At least in terms of pressure and chip.
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With this buff I think it FF might just beat dragon fire by a little pressure wise, in some situations. Example: DF F213 FBRC F213 FBRC F213 FBDC is 7.75% chip, uses stamina, & the last cancel isn't as plus. While FF F213 SF F213 DR does 7-8% and F213 SF F213 EX Fireball does 8-9%, uses no stamina, is all safe, and similar meter build. I don't think he should be abusing WP too much rather than staying safe.
 
HGTV Soapboxfan

HGTV Soapboxfan

"Always a Pleasure"
Yeah unless it's going to kill or you really need the damage or the character you're fighting doesn't have much in the way of options against it, I wouldn't be throwing out WP on block. Just stick to DR and keep yourself safe
 
RyuKazuya

RyuKazuya

Jesus is my Lord and Savior!
can someone pls explain how i have to calculate the frame advantage on f213 on block after being canceled with a fireball rc?
 
AK L0rdoftheFLY

AK L0rdoftheFLY

I hatelove this game
RyuKazuya said:
can someone pls explain how i have to calculate the frame advantage on f213 on block after being canceled with a fireball rc?
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Set a character like reptile or sub to reversal slide and work on cackling into f1 (6 frames) then d2 (7 frames) standing 1 (8 frames) and so on till their reversal comes out. The frame advantage is equal to the last normal the jails them without the Reversl coming out.
 
GreatKungLao

GreatKungLao

LiuTana
It was such a shame, I lost the internet for three days since Wednesday because of thunder that came through our city here and provider couldn't fix the problem till today morning. This video you will see below was suppose to be Day 1 combo video I wanted to show with after-patch Flame Fist. I'm afraid a lot of things won't look surprising now, but I hope you will enjoy the attempt of mine. Thanks beforehand!

 
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STRYKIE

STRYKIE

Are ya' ready for MK11 kids?!
AK Harold said:
so if you do WP cancel to FF people can just jump out or back dash?
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I'm pretty sure if you cancel straight into DD1 everyone can punish lol.

If you do EX WP into DD1 however, it looks like it's plus on block... only a few characters can interrupt from what I've looked into. Not sure how intentional any of it is.
 
A

Ayane

Noob
ImAura said:
With this buff I think it FF might just beat dragon fire by a little pressure wise, in some situations. Example: DF F213 FBRC F213 FBRC F213 FBDC is 7.75% chip, uses stamina, & the last cancel isn't as plus. While FF F213 SF F213 DR does 7-8% and F213 SF F213 EX Fireball does 8-9%, uses no stamina, is all safe, and similar meter build. I don't think he should be abusing WP too much rather than staying safe.
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In that situation they are comparable sure but let's look deeper.

First, not needing stam is def an advantage of using FF. It's a huge buff to his neutral. To play DF well you basically have to play street fighter instead of MKX in terms of movement. And of course breaking is a much bigger disadvantage to DF than FF.

Second, you're definitely right in that WP basically shouldn't be used, but also EX FB in FF will whiff even on characters that are crouch blocking.

The meter build is really only comparable if you're using WP. DF can gain a full bar and be + at the end of this series (f213>FBRC)x3>f213>bf2(1 hit) meter burn into wind mill kicks (these are mids) you are now at +2 and built (but also spent) 1 bar of meter. You need a little bit of meter before starting this series because a ton of the meter is gained from the bf2 MB kicks. But in my experience that's never been a problem. Especially because you start the round with a bar. Also your stam starts recharging during the bicycle kicks.

Also remember that FF has 1 point where they can do a frame trap/true block string once every 6 seconds. Where as DF pressure can be looped indefinitely depending on whether FBRC, FBDC, or bf2(1) mb early. Since every thing takes up different amount of times and also puts different amounts of cool down on stamina.

Another thing about DF is that it has the best version of fly kick. DF fly kicks break armor, can have armor, are safe, and can be turned into a + situation if you spend a bar.

It could very well be that DF just fits my playstyle better than FF so I'm not seeing FF in the same light. I like all 3 of LK's variations and am happy to see any of them do well or hop from one to another haha. TBH I think the biggest problem with LK atm is still that so many of his strings become useless because of their hit boxes. As well as special moves such as bicycle kicks MB being a OH that are almost impossible to hit a crouching opponent, and FF EX FB being a mid that whiffs over crouch blockers. IDK if being able to low profile db2 was intended or not but it definitely doesn't help lol.
 
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Ayane

Noob
Something interesting I just found out about DF's bf1. It's actually faster if you hold for a split second then let go than if you just type it in and let it happen. Interesting....

easiest way to test is go to the corner do f213>bf1. doesn't combo
then do f213>bf[1]>combos

not sure if this was already known or not.
 
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ImAura

ImAura

Ironic Irony
Ayane said:
EX FB in FF will whiff even on characters that are crouch blocking.
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Yea, but I believe it'll jail with F213 on block. Plus, I can't believe I forgot about DF's bicycle kick pressure... Though it's only +2 in a gain determined by armor. Same with his last FBDC being able to be armored in witch case it becomes player skill & a mind game. The thing that I think will make the FF variation so deadly though is that you can bait the waste of meter sometimes and use the parry after WP for certain characters & if you can't parry their special you can still make them waste the meter. Then again I'm ok with sacrificing a little hp here & there. I even do it with Shinnoks F224 string because once they have no meter they have to eat your WPs, all your pressure, & your building DF amounts of meter. Now he may not be a pyromancer, but he can still activate SF full screen & get the extra damage on hit & block.
 
ImAura

ImAura

Ironic Irony
Almost forgot this variation isn't meter dependent, so it can be used for breakers, ex parry for an easy 21%, or the dreaded X-Ray.
 
SEV

SEV

Noob
Gutirriez said:
So is flame fist the better variation as of right now?
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They're both pretty even in my opinion, but I always thought Liu was pretty good in DF despite the community opinion; FF might be slightly better but it just comes down to personal preference really. The WP chip shenanigans that are causing the variation to get a lot of attention right now are going to die pretty quick; the move it pretty unsafe, but the variation is really solid now and having a parry is a nice little bonus.

FF has better meterless damage and a better closing game being able to do 16-17% guaranteed chip from F44 DD1 F12 WP LFB, but mid game you'll take a full combo punish for doing that. They both do similar metered damage, but being able to do more meterless damage means you have more meter for armor and breakers which is a big deal.

DF has better pressure than FF; FF has more guaranteed options from F213 SF and can impose frame traps with better range using F44 SF, but the trade off is that it's cool down based. You get one frame trap when you active SF, then you have to wait for it to go away be able to apply your frame traps again. DF's pressure is stamina based so you can apply it more frequently, get better mix up potential through F213 FBRC loops, and you can also spend meter for even more plus frames with BF2ex.

DF has a better set ups, but FF gives you standing resets so it negates the lack of set ups since you're leaving them standing, unless you want to go for max damage in which case you have to launch. The real strength of the standing resets, in my opinion, is ending a combo with WP without canceling it into a FB; you lose 4% damage to leave them standing at +56: everything's guaranteed. Similar to Lao's ex hat spin you can create mind games off the absurd + frames by staggering pressure and baiting grabs, and it's pretty much a free 14% grab so you can still net a 10% damage gain.

The zoning is pretty even now too but I'd give a slight edge to DF, despite FF getting the damage buff when SF is active. In DF, Liu's fireball goes from a high to a mid, and become chargeable. Mixing up your fireball patterns, which you should still be doing in DF anyway, can work just as well as having a chargeable fireball, so really it's just personal preference between the damage buff or the mid fireball.

TL;DR: FF has a stronger end game and better meterless damage which means you can save meter for armor and breakers, while DF has better pressure and zoning.
 
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A

Ayane

Noob
ImAura said:
Yea, but I believe it'll jail with F213 on block. Plus, I can't believe I forgot about DF's bicycle kick pressure... Though it's only +2 in a gain determined by armor. Same with his last FBDC being able to be armored in witch case it becomes player skill & a mind game. The thing that I think will make the FF variation so deadly though is that you can bait the waste of meter sometimes and use the parry after WP for certain characters & if you can't parry their special you can still make them waste the meter. Then again I'm ok with sacrificing a little hp here & there. I even do it with Shinnoks F224 string because once they have no meter they have to eat your WPs, all your pressure, & your building DF amounts of meter. Now he may not be a pyromancer, but he can still activate SF full screen & get the extra damage on hit & block.
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Ok tested FF F213> EX FB. It's character dependant. On sub it works half the time and on Cassie/Sonya it fails 100% of the time.

it's only +2 but then you can do a 9f armor breaking move which dunks on pretty much every armored move in the game, and I think all the moves it loses to are full combo punishable on block anyways.

I don't think DF is more meter dependent than FF at all. You can still turn any hit into 30% ish meterless with FBRC and it does like 45% meterless in the corner with string>fbrc>113>IAFB x4>f213>bicycle>d1>bf3. Although there is a trade of with EX WP being a armored combo starter mid where as DF's armored moves are safe but kinda meh. I still would use meter just for armored reversals in both variations.

FF dmg is easily better though. But I think in some MU's FF isn't great and some it is, where as DF is basically the same between all of them. IDK maybe once I get really good with Liu and I can just beat everyone in footsies and whiff punish things FF will be better lol.
 
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