Video/Tutorial - Dragons Fire Liu Kang corner block trap

[Crathen]

you are telling me to imagine what happens i have to deal with erron black and sonya had low projectiles from far and their 50/50s from close range. My answer is they already had those low projectiles and i don't need to imagine them having it.

As for taking risks jumping against liu kang. go for it, his anti air and air to air normals are ass.

Yeah and his walkspeed sucks right?

You seriously are comparing their projectile to Liu Kang? HA

 

[I GOT HANDS]

It strikes me to ask the question exactly WHY would LK ever try armour break, considering its a 1 frame window of success, and Blocking absolutely ANY armored move in the game (at the very least, if not full combo punish) puts them straight back into the block infinite anyway which is all a successful armour break does anyway, and if you make the wrong read, you aren't negative, which you would be with a blocked B1?

This may be true but when well known players are creating the mob mentality based on misinformation, it seems right to point out flaws in their logic so people learn how to approach the mu instead of just complain.

Some of this information may seem like downplaying but it's not.

There is definitely some down and up playing going on in here, however I think you are doing a good job of just discussing the actual information on hand and what it means, and clearing up the falsities.

I think at the end of the day all this nerf lobbying is useless.

I wouldn't be surprised if we don't see any balance changes until KP2 comes out (if then). As that is the reality, isn't it more beneficial to learn the match-up? Especially when plenty of Liu mains are willing to help you guys figure out the available options and grind matches.

Best case scenario for the whinging is getting Liu nerfed (again, like every patch) the next balance patch. Which will be around SF5 release anyway, so whatever.

This mentality is kinda good in theory.... but this doesn't really seem to be that complex of an issue to me for this kinda perspective to be valid. No amount of coaching or leveling up, can let your character do something it can't. I mean you either have a move with enough frames to get out of it or you don't, if you are stuck in the infinite and can't get out EVER without both spending a bar AND making the right read or going straight back in it, than it's probably an oversight that shouldn't be in the game in my opinion. It's also fine to say "well it may be around for quite a while" which may or may not be the case, but it doesn't hurt to have discussion on the matter regardless. Well, ACTUAL discussion that is, as I see some other people in here are more interested in pushing agendas, as per always

 

[THTB]

And get what 16% out an EX slide into no kind of oki IF he's in range? Or is the liu player dumb enough to shoot a fireball when i am in jump distance?

It's not exactly the worst idea and aids in alleviating his issues with the range of his normals.

I don't get why people think throwing a projectile at jump range is always an awful idea. Using projectiles there is 2D fighters 101.

 

[The_Tile]

A good bunch characters gets zoned to death by Liu Kang and have to either take risks like jumpins / use meter on armor or slowly crawl into his range and he gets in whenever he wants and starts block pressure / throws / b2 / f4 , his neutral game is stupid good along w the meter he builds , his is risk free pressure

Sound like someone else? *cough* Predator *cough*

 

[AK L0rdoftheFLY]

It strikes me to ask the question exactly WHY would LK ever try armour break, considering its a 1 frame window of success, and Blocking absolutely ANY armored move in the game puts them straight back into the block infinite anyway which is all a successful armour break does anyway, and if you make the wrong read, you aren't negative, which you would be with a blocked B1?





There is definitely some down and up playing going on in here, however I think you are doing a good job of just discussing the actual information on hand and what it means, and clearing up the falsities.





This mentality is kinda good in theory.... but this doesn't really seem to be that complex of an issue to me for this kinda perspective to be valid. No amount of coaching or leveling up, can let your character do something it can't. I mean you either have a move with enough frames to get out of it or you don't, if you are stuck in the infinite and can't get out EVER without both spending a bar AND making the right read or going straight back in it, than it's probably an oversight that shouldn't be in the game in my opinion. It's also fine to say "well it may be around for quite a while" which may or may not be the case, but it doesn't hurt to have discussion on the matter regardless. Well, ACTUAL discussion that is, as I see some other people in here are more interested in pushing agendas, as per always

That's where it gets situational and player knowledge rather than character knowledge steps in.

Say I stop and try to block instead of using b1. You then revers throw me and I'm in the corner.

B12 is only -2 I think so you can argue it's not a big deal if blocked. But honestly your right. On knockdown, delayed wake up and blocking both beat b12 clean.

B12 FK mb is his only way to stay in after another FK mb. That is unless you let him get the f213 loop going again

 

[WiseM0nkey]

if other characters gets a faster poke then it will never be a loopable block infinite.

you missed my point, or you didnt understand it at all.

if you give everyone a 6/7f poke to deal with liu kang block pressure, then we all going to have to deal with those pokes, and the characters who has little to none block pressure (nowhere near as good as liu kang), will just get blown up by everyones 6/7 frame poke, so block pressure will be non existent.

Im totally fine with block pressure, cause chip is an important part of MK, but you need to balance it, liu kang is just too much, he needs to be toned down

 

[Crathen]

It's not exactly the worst idea and aids in alleviating his issues with the range of his normals.

I don't get why people think throwing a projectile at jump range is always an awful idea. Using projectiles there is 2D fighters 101.

Because at jump distance it ain't reactable , wich was the point he's trying to make. So to take out the low fb you jump when you're in distance on a read wich is my point and Liu on that situation can simply not throw the fb one time and either trip guard w his great walkspeed or d2 aa or jump back iafb.

The point i'm trying to make this liu players see is how his fb along w normals and block pressure make him a monster in neutral

 

[WITNESS]

That's the MU 101 , what happens when you stay still looking for a fireball and liu decides to run b2 or run into f213 , you confident you can react to that?

MU 101, yes I am very confident in my reactions and if a liu Kang runs up on you in DF how is he going to pressure you with f213 run cancel without stamina unless he has a bar runs up does f213 mb kick

 

[Genei Jin]

Yeah and his walkspeed sucks right?

You seriously are comparing their projectile to Liu Kang? HA

again, you're telling me to imagine what happens if erron and sonya have low projectiles and then having to deal with their 50/50s.

what exactly is your point? you want me to imagine erron black and sonya zoning you out from a distance and once you get in, you have to deal with their 50/50s? Because thats exactly what gunslinger does and to a lesser degree s.f. sonya.

 

[I GOT HANDS]

You know what - I don't think this is broken. I take back my past blanket statements about things like this shouldn't be in the game, we shouldn't make such blanket statements as every character is different. LK has insane pressure on block, but thats what the character is built around. Scorps pressure requires exactly the same thing, make the right read and armour, or he puts you right back in it, there is just much more opportunities, and he is far from broken.


LK has to both get you in the corner, make the right reads, and do it without any real mix-up game.


I do however think it's maybe a bit OP. It doesn't break the game, the character has little else. However if this block infinite has just been discovered than it may as well have just been patched in (yes I know it's not the same, but meh it's a new option for him to use that wasn't being used before), so I think he needs something to counteract this new massive advantage he now has in match ups that for the most part, that he was already winning.



to the LK players/downplayers - It's ok for us to ask for rebalances to certain things as time goes on and more is discovered about the game. The logic "level up and learn to deal with it, it's been in the game this whole time" seems kinda silly. If I was to find 100% combo off anything for my Kung Lao, that left every character in the game with NO options, would you say "well, I guess we all just need to level up, this HAS been in the game since the last patch"? Where do we draw the line? It's silly to even have a line in the first place, blanket statements do not work, let's look at this for what it is, and for it needs be, and thank the lord brady for helping us discover more about the game.



However I do think that there is also a lot of overreacting going on in here. It's really not a justification for nerfs.

 

[Prinz]

Frametraps?

 

[THTB]

Because at jump distance it ain't reactable , wich was the point he's trying to make. So to take out the low fb you jump when you're in distance on a read wich is my point and Liu on that situation can simply not throw the fb one time and either trip guard w his great walkspeed or d2 aa or jump back iafb.

The point i'm trying to make this liu players see is how his fb along w normals and block pressure make him a monster in neutral

Gotcha. Misunderstood your post is all.

 

[Parasurama]

you missed my point, or you didnt understand it at all.

if you give everyone a 6/7f poke to deal with liu kang block pressure, then we all going to have to deal with those pokes, and the characters who has little to none block pressure (nowhere near as good as liu kang), will just get blown up by everyones 6/7 frame poke, so block pressure will be non existent.

Im totally fine with block pressure, cause chip is an important part of MK, but you need to balance it, liu kang is just too much, he needs to be toned down

He is fine as he is, it is the only thing he has going for him in the close range, otherwise people can block all day with out an actual 50/50 risk. I feel people should know the LK match up and know about what he could do just like if you fight a Quan Chi or Scorpion and you know about the vortex and seek to try avoid it or get out of it. This is a similar concept except you can armor through or even poke out after the FK, some characters can parry or reversal.

 

[xXxNasHxXx]

you missed my point, or you didnt understand it at all.

if you give everyone a 6/7f poke to deal with liu kang block pressure, then we all going to have to deal with those pokes, and the characters who has little to none block pressure (nowhere near as good as liu kang), will just get blown up by everyones 6/7 frame poke, so block pressure will be non existent.

Im totally fine with block pressure, cause chip is an important part of MK, but you need to balance it, liu kang is just too much, he needs to be toned down

i understood everything you said and it was nothing more than asking for nerfs by saying he needs to be balanced. I think you should post some OP Liu Kang Match videos before calling him too much. So that we can see does he needs to be toned down or not. This game is full of 50/50s and vortex and you are saying his pressure is something hard to deal with. Oh come on man...

 

[THTB]

MU 101, yes I am very confident in my reactions and if a liu Kang runs up on you in DF how is he going to pressure you with f213 run cancel without stamina unless he has a bar runs up does f213 mb kick

Or he can just space you out with f213 back fist. And waste time in neutral until he builds back stamina.

 

[Crathen]

MU 101, yes I am very confident in my reactions and if a liu Kang runs up on you in DF how is he going to pressure you with f213 run cancel without stamina unless he has a bar runs up does f213 mb kick

You just said it yourself and we're not even accounting all the times the opponent is - frames and liu can armor break + pressure + stuff ( bad ) backdashes w f44 or f213

 

[WITNESS]

Or he can just space you out with f213 back fist. And waste time in neutral until he builds back stamina.

Tell that to Johnny or anyone else with a good low profile move

 

[Crathen]

Tell that to Johnny or anyone else with a good low profile move

Lol @Asodimazze

 

[Enexemander]

Or he can just space you out with f213 back fist. And waste time in neutral until he builds back stamina.

Sigh. I assume you mean Dragon's Roar, which is minus?

And yes, waste time in neutral. Also known as spacing. Also known as fighting games 101.

You're right. There's no defense against a player that is better than you in the neutral game. I don't see how nerfing any particular character is going to account for poor spacing, poor resource tracking, and poor match-up knowledge.

 

[THTB]

Tell that to Johnny or anyone else with a good low profile move

Low fireball.

 

[WiseM0nkey]

He is fine as he is, it is the only thing he has going for him in the close range, otherwise people can block all day with out an actual 50/50 risk. I feel people should know the LK match up and know about what he could do just like if you fight a Quan Chi or Scorpion and you know about the vortex and seek to try avoid it or get out of it. This is a similar concept except you can armor through or even poke out after the FK, some characters can parry or reversal.

well... you're point was unnecessay, cause no matter what, ppl will need to learn how to deal with certain things and will continue to learn the MUs.

But this cant justify the fact that his pressure is too good at no real cost exept for stamina wich you can get back fairly quick, it cant justify the stupid unblockable vortex Quan Chi has and so on.

you cant just say "level up, git gud, learn the MU" cause that's what competitive players do / will do evertime. this is just silly

 

[Dizzy]

@st9rm

Yep.

Plus he has to jump- ain't gonna happen .

Instant air X-ray does work in this situation, FYI.

 

[WITNESS]

Low fireball.

Low fireball.

So they can block and punish, not always a good option man

 

[THTB]

Sigh. I assume you mean Dragon's Roar, which is minus?

And yes, waste time in neutral. Also known as spacing. Also known as fighting games 101.

You're right. There's no defense against a player that is better than you in the neutral game. I don't see how nerfing any particular character is going to account for poor spacing, poor resource tracking, and poor match-up knowledge.

The character doesn't need to be nerfed outside of the pseudo. And even that is dealt with without even touching Liu. Most people aren't even asking for anything other than that.

 

[xXxNasHxXx]

The character doesn't need to be nerfed outside of the pseudo. And even that is dealt with without even touching Liu. Most people aren't even asking for anything other than that.

I think the other characters who are having trouble against LK should be given faster normals. What you think..???