How to Build Certain Fundamentals? Read Before Posting

[CrimsonShadow]

So after discussion today, I've been thinking a lot about how we approach fighting games. When talking about who is projected to be good in one game or the other, the subject of who has better fundamentals is usually associated with that topic.

So I got to thinking.. It's assumed that some people have better fundamentals (much better sometimes) than others, but why? And how did they get them?

In this case, I'm talking about specific fundamentals -- not just "Oh he's solid all around". For example:

• Why do some players have really good footsies? How did they get them? For players who don't have them, what can they do to get them?
• Aside from birth rights, why do some people have great reactions? What can people do to improve their reaction time in fighting games?
• Why are some players better than others at adaptation? And what can the players who aren't good at it do to improve?

In general, maybe it's just my mindset.. But if I was taking a game seriously on a competitive level, I wouldn't accept having deficiencies in key areas. For example, if someone said "Well, his footsies aren't good", then I'd want to acquire the best possible footsies at some point -- or at least before the next game comes out.

But I think that a lot of times, we just assume that people naturally have these things -- and so we don't level up.

Experience learning other difficult skills in life has shown me that many things can be learned if you work hard and smart enough. So I'm curious to see what people who excel in certain areas have to say on the subject.

Please, specific/detailed answers only. It's an interesting discussion, let's go!

 

[CrimsonShadow]

So for an example, @GGA 16 Bit commonly said that only a few players had top-level footsies in MK9 (himself included). So for example, Bit: how did you get them? Was it something you specifically targeted and worked on, or did it happen naturally? Were there specific people you were playing when they developed? Is there a certain mindset you have towards playing, that brings them out? Or other games you previously played?

Why is it that with so many people, working so hard, and training for hours a day to be good at the game, only a few players manage to reach a point where they have formidable footsies?

The interesting thing to me is that it's not always the most cerebral players that have them. Sometimes its guys like CD Jr. that seem to play mainly with their heart. So everyone's method of getting there can't be the same.

Likewise to you @WoundCowboy.

@Slips if you're still around, it'd be great to see you comment on this as well. @Denzell, you too -- or maybe you can bug him and collect his thoughts @MITDJT.

 

[RelentlessOhio]

I think it's a few factors:

- Reaction Time
- Downloading (If you've played them a lot)
- Natural Talent

Some people have great reaction time, and can react to things twice as fast as a lot of others. And if you've played a match up a lot against someone and you know how they play, that only helps.

Compare it to basketball as an analogy. Some people have to work their ass off just to get decent, and others step on the court like they have been doing it for 30 years.

And I mean as with anything else, the more you practice, the more comfortable you get. I personally play quite a bit every day, and I know I wouldn't hold a candle to a lot of high-level players on here. Everyone has their skills they excel at over most people.

 

[16 Bit]

It's interesting because in my case I feel my journey to be good at MK and Injustice was different. MK came naturally. I was doing well with Kitana right away. In Tekken I was always criticized for being to scared to go in and played it too safe and in MK with Kitana that wasn't a problem. The only major change I made in play was in 2012 when I started rushing down more, partly inspired by CD Sr and from playing at GGA, and that was a natural progression that didn't take much work. Injustice on the other hand was a long struggle. My instincts in that game weren't strong and like a lot of players I was lost in it's footsies game, the way dashing works, the way anti-airs work, it threw me off. Slips helped in breaking it down. He basically laid out the blue print for IGAU fundamentals and I followed him. Even then I wasn't that great at first. It was only when I switched to maining Catwoman that I truly got it. Probably because that's all she's good at it. I think that was just a combination of my insistence on playing the character I love juxtaposed with my competitive drive and need to win. I forced myself to get it, there was no other option.

Dizzy and I were talking about the Terry brothers recently and we were wondering how two young, inexperienced players could formulate such a conservative, fundamental play style. It's odd yet when you think about it makes so much sense. I imagine Denzell wanted to main Sub-Zero because he thought Sub-Zero was cool. What's the only way Sub-Zero can win? Patience. Being brothers they'd have a competitive nature and would hate losing to each other. So Denzell was forced to excel in that skill and that in turn forced Malik to adapt the same skillset to compete.

 

[CrimsonShadow]

Dizzy and I were talking about the Terry brothers recently and we were wondering how two young, inexperienced players could formulate such a conservative, fundamental play style. It's odd yet when you think about it makes so much sense. I imagine Denzell wanted to main Sub-Zero because he thought Sub-Zero was cool. What's the only way Sub-Zero can win? Patience. Being brothers they'd have a competitive nature and would hate losing to each other. So Denzell was forced to excel in that skill and that in turn forced Malik to adapt the same skillset to compete.

Do you feel that there's anything from Tekken that crossed over and helped you in MK? Seems like the question is begged because Slips was such a high-level Tekken player and also had some of the best footsies in NRS titles. Also Aris was outfootsie'ing everyone at the start of IGAU.

I might reach out to Denzell and MIT and see if they'll add their thoughts.

 

[GGA Saucy Jack]

Outside of winning the genetics lottery, hard work and understanding of "what is going on" is (in my opinion) how you improve in these areas.

It's my belief that too many players get caught looking for the newest corner setup, the newest big bnb, the newest cross up shenanigan, and not enough time "playing the game."

If you actually want to improve, the answer is not writing off your character as a shitter, or hitting the lab to find ways to tack on 1 percent to your bnb.

In short Crimson, to answer your question, I don't think players understand how to play the game they are playing. I certainly know I didnt. It took @GGA 16 Bit and @Slips to pull me aside, and literally yell at me and tell me that, no offense, but I was bad. I wasn't working on the proper thing.

Footsies in Injustice come from understanding how to manipulate your opponents movement deficiencies. Many complaints have been cited about movement. So the footsies game is getting in to the range of your longest normal, and deciding to jump, throw it our, armor, or react. Your opponent does the same thing. In Injustice, to improve that requires time and effort and practice to ensure that is in your advantage.

Godlike reactions can come naturally. But most of the "do this on reaction" talk is actually because you were looking for it. Anti air on reaction when looking for it, is different than anti air on reaction when looking for a dash in. Improved reactions come from a greater understanding of what your opponent can and can't do in a given situation. Reactions are, quite frankly, most often just correct reads.

In the end, I think a lot of players (not just this community) spend their time incorrectly.

-instead of boasting on the forum or talking down to someone, maybe listen?

-instead of trying to find a crossover f3 situational setup, maybe learn the spacing of a problem opponent characters normals

-instead of crying that your character sucks, maybe look in to ways to manipulate the footsies game to your advantage.

There is no substitute for hard work, matchup knowledge, and understanding your options, and your opponents. That is how you improve those phases.







Or you pick aquaman.

 

[Faded Dreams V]

Adaptation - The more matches you play throughout the span of the game, the more familiar you become with strategies, combos, and tech to the point where you understand the ins and outs of every particular MU. Naturally, when you encounter a playstyle you've never encountered before, you still know, on a technical level, what your opponent's character is capable of, so as the match plays out and you analyze your opponent's strategy, you begin to adapt. Understanding frame data is very important here.

Reaction - Same as above, really. The more you play, the easier it is to adapt, and when you know the ins and outs of your opponent's character, you're able to gauge, by the second, every option he is capable of doing at any part of the screen, mentally preparing yourself to counter any of those actions on reaction. Anticipation plays a big role.

Footsies - This one is tough. It's something you naturally "get" as you play various levels of opponents. You can understand the concepts of spacing, anti-air, poking, and so on, but you won't know how to execute any of these concepts (efficiently) unless you play people of your skill level, and gradually move up to fight better opponents. Every top players already gets it, obviously, and have developed the skills to play at high-speed levels. An intermediate/beginner player playing against them will likely learn nothing from their matches since they'll lose so quickly (unless the top players actually teach them), so they kind of need to work their way up and study their matches. This isn't a god-given gift; you really just need to understand certain mechanics that are universal in every fighting game.

 

[16 Bit]

Do you feel that there's anything from Tekken that crossed over and helped you in MK? Seems like the question is begged because Slips was such a high-level Tekken player and also had some of the best footsies in NRS titles. Also Aris was outfootsie'ing everyone at the start of IGAU.

I might reach out to Denzell and MIT and see if they'll add their thoughts.

Nothing Tekken specific but the experience playing top level fighting game players definitely helped when MK came out. I was becoming decent at Tekken just as I quit and moved to MK. That's more on the competition and having a mentor like Slips. Playing with those guys would have helped no matter which FG we played.

 

[Tony at Home]

I've actually looked up thoroughly on how to improve my reaction time, even asked my doctor about it- since I seem to be on the slow side: I can react to 20 frames or more, but just barely, and much less often than others can.

The answers my doctor gave me:

You can improve reactions by a small margin with practice, but not much.

You can also intake caffeine, which improves them a small amount further, of course it will make you jittery as well- which is a direct side effect of it (in other words, if caffeine dose not make you jittery, it is not improving your reaction times either).

Unfortunately, a large part of reaction times is genetic, and apart from those options above, there's not much you can do about it.

 

[Smarrgasm]

Hold that Crimson

 

[rev0lver]

drugs

 

[WAR-BLAST]

On the grand scale, you have to think in terms of that which you can and cannot control. And since some things are both two fold, you have to think about the give and take of such elements. In application, this means practice (determination, eye/hand coordination & dexterity) and knowledge (researching movement & setups) These things take shape and converge into motivation and overall experience.

Amongst other things, fighting games share the control/uncontrollable factor because you do what you can with your characters moveset. But you can become hindered by your characters inherent play style and options. Such as characters that have a lot more slower ranged normals and special moves. Add in a good player to the mix and matchups become increasingly difficult.

Also one shouldn't forget that a lot of things aren't set in stone and that life happens. And the way some players view other players just settle in the form of an opinion. In the end, all you can do is try your best.

 

[CrimsonShadow]

I've actually looked up thoroughly on how to improve my reaction time, even asked my doctor about it- since I seem to be on the slow side: I can react to 20 frames or more, but just barely, and much less often than others can.

The answers my doctor gave me:

You can improve reactions by a small margin with practice, but not much.

You can also intake caffeine, which improves them a small amount further, of course it will make you jittery as well- which is a direct side effect of it (in other words, if caffeine dose not make you jittery, it is not improving your reaction times either).

Unfortunately, a large part of reaction times is genetic, and apart from those options above, there's not much you can do about it.

That's not true on an application-specific level, though.

For example, take Infinity Blade II on the iPhone. Most of the game revolves around you looking at an incoming attack, and either parrying, dodging, or blocking it correctly. When I first started playing the game, I'd get hit by everything. Now, I can react to maybe 85% of the attacks in seconds. My natural human reaction time is no faster than it was at the start; but my reaction time in the game is 5 times faster.

But there are lots of little keys to that; like recognizing the "tell" at the start of a move, remembering some of the common attack patterns and being mentally ready for them, following their weapon placement with your eyes instead of focusing on the body of the enemy etc. Someone who hasn't learned those things is going to have a much harder time reacting to what's coming in.

 

[Euphoric]

Hold that Crimson

dis

 

[oNe87_Kentucky]

I have no fundamentals in any NRS game except injustice and those fundamentals came from throwing down set after set with literally thousands of online warriors and spending countless hours in the lab not only with my character but every character in this game. I would say experience is probably the best way to develop fundamentals like reads and adaptation. Even watching tournaments can improve your reads, for example I use joker and when I face green lanterns I think back to that match that Assassin Shyf lost to TylerLantern because he didn't pay attention to super. So when their health gets low thats something I specifically look for causing me to slowdown and be more patient. Another huge part in building my fundamentals is using a character with many bad/hard matchups. It literally forces me to think extremely hard because not only can that one right read be their healthbar... That one wrong read can be mine. As far as footsies go, I don't know much about those cause ... Again, I use Joker

 

[WAR-BLAST]

That's not true on an application-specific level, though.

For example, take Infinity Blade II on the iPhone. Most of the game revolves around you looking at an incoming attack, and either parrying, dodging, or blocking it correctly. When I first started playing the game, I'd get hit by everything. Now, I can react to maybe 85% of the attacks in seconds. My natural human reaction time is no faster than it was at the start; but my reaction time in the game is 5 times faster.

But there are lots of little keys to that; like recognizing the "tell" at the start of a move, remembering some of the common attack patterns and being mentally ready for them, following their weapon placement with your eyes instead of focusing on the body of the enemy etc. Someone who hasn't learned those things is going to have a much harder time reacting to what's coming in.

Wouldn't that be dependent on the person performing those actions though, and how fast their body perceives movement?

 

[Zoidberg747]

I've actually looked up thoroughly on how to improve my reaction time, even asked my doctor about it- since I seem to be on the slow side: I can react to 20 frames or more, but just barely, and much less often than others can.

The answers my doctor gave me:

You can improve reactions by a small margin with practice, but not much.

You can also intake caffeine, which improves them a small amount further, of course it will make you jittery as well- which is a direct side effect of it (in other words, if caffeine dose not make you jittery, it is not improving your reaction times either).

Unfortunately, a large part of reaction times is genetic, and apart from those options above, there's not much you can do about it.

Like someone else said if you are looking for a certain move or expecting to punish something then your reaction time does not really matter. It is much more about anticpation and making reads then it is about actual reaction time.

 

[Eddy Wang]

I have the inner eye.

 

[Kyu]

I play Bane so I have no idea what this thread is about. How do you read?

 

[Zyphox]

Outside of winning the genetics lottery, hard work and understanding of "what is going on" is (in my opinion) how you improve in these areas.

It's my belief that too many players get caught looking for the newest corner setup, the newest big bnb, the newest cross up shenanigan, and not enough time "playing the game."

If you actually want to improve, the answer is not writing off your character as a shitter, or hitting the lab to find ways to tack on 1 percent to your bnb.

In short Crimson, to answer your question, I don't think players understand how to play the game they are playing. I certainly know I didnt. It took @GGA 16 Bit and @Slips to pull me aside, and literally yell at me and tell me that, no offense, but I was bad. I wasn't working on the proper thing.

Footsies in Injustice come from understanding how to manipulate your opponents movement deficiencies. Many complaints have been cited about movement. So the footsies game is getting in to the range of your longest normal, and deciding to jump, throw it our, armor, or react. Your opponent does the same thing. In Injustice, to improve that requires time and effort and practice to ensure that is in your advantage.

Godlike reactions can come naturally. But most of the "do this on reaction" talk is actually because you were looking for it. Anti air on reaction when looking for it, is different than anti air on reaction when looking for a dash in. Improved reactions come from a greater understanding of what your opponent can and can't do in a given situation. Reactions are, quite frankly, most often just correct reads.

In the end, I think a lot of players (not just this community) spend their time incorrectly.

-instead of boasting on the forum or talking down to someone, maybe listen?

-instead of trying to find a crossover f3 situational setup, maybe learn the spacing of a problem opponent characters normals

-instead of crying that your character sucks, maybe look in to ways to manipulate the footsies game to your advantage.

There is no substitute for hard work, matchup knowledge, and understanding your options, and your opponents. That is how you improve those phases.







Or you pick aquaman.

i agree with this 100% and its why i stopped doing crazy set ups or even spent anytime looking for crazy set ups in the months between NEC and WB. i missed out on apex and DTN in that time to take a break from the game, focus on life and didn't really hit the lab at all in the time between. if you see my flash play from NEC and before to WB and after its so different, i spend more time analyzing footsies, player tendencies, defense and situational offense etc. this is why i was able to do what i did at WB and in all honesty i believe had i not choked could have won that tournament, i was choking so bad i couldnt even hit bnb's in the final two games vs KDZ. against king i labbed how to defend against bats and J2, instead of labbing on how a batman specific set up can win me the game. i knew d'2 was the answer and i abused it to no end in the match. against jupiter i knew i would have to take advantage of my correct reads to the fullest, i just found out a gap between strings and MB orb the night before we played knowing i would play jupiter, and in all honestly when it came down to the wire i used the MB b3 to go right throw his MB orb and finish the game. i also adjusted to brady after losing to him to get top 8 winners. i knew brady wasn't really punishing my dash ups. i took mental notes of what he was and wasn't punishing and his tendencies to wake up. against KDZ i choked and got outplayed badly in 3 straight games because i literally rote the evo champ off. my head after getting top 3 was so big i immediately grabbed jupiter to help me learn the batgirl MU really quick because i thought to my self if he used superman i would steam roll him and if it were 2/3 that would have been the case, but he came back and i choked and got outplayed. my in-experience got the better of me in that set and it cost me. i know now to never, ever, ever, EVER write someone off like its going to be a free win (unless its muffin muggers).

 

[Immortal Kombat]

The last tournament i went to i was worried about my reaction time because im not used to playing offline. I strongly urge people to use headphones with game audio only. My reactions were much better than they usually are. I was also told to tune everything out win or lose. Plus having plenty of sleep and taking a 5 hour energy twenty minutes before my match seemed to really make me tune in to what i was doing. I believe reactions can be severally weakened if your worried about anything going on outside of your monitor

 

[Dizzy]

I never really understood footsies until I played a few long sets with @Slips in 2011. Specifically in Fighter X Shooter I feel like I took a lot away from it.

You can really tell when someone is uncomfortable in the neutral game and they will either run away, rush in, or jump. I think at the time I was one of those, so I would just get freed up. So playing a lot with Slips and 16 bit helped alot. 16 bit had much better footsies then me but it was really hard to tell with Kitana at that time because her range was so superior it was easy to see why I was having trouble. (It has been said by a wise player that Kitana spaces herself out) With scorpion on the other hand, his range was lacking and it was easier to see how I was getting utterly out spaced.

 

[STB Shujinkydink]

As a character loyalist i can offer some unique advice perhaps.

I played only quan chi competitvely in from 2011-2013. Quan is a very unsafe character. Everything offensive he does has ginormous consequences, and I dont say ginormous alot so you know im serious. So i learned how to punish everything in the game, and focused on max damage punishes. B21,b21 b11 trance is my go to punish string. using advantage of d3 to get a free b3...etc. Since quan as we all know is so meter heavy i learned to always keep an eye on my meter. Watching my match from EVO 2013 @GGA 16 Bit says on commentary that my biggest strength is my meter management. Which i agree. But thats because my character relies on it to win. @Goldy has told me she noticed from playing me in other games such as injustice, VF, or SCV, that my meter hogging and Bait and punish style carry over, and I gravitate towards characters or strategies with that style. Which is basically where im going with this unneedingly long post. You develop a style, whether its one you choose, or one your drawn too subconciously. Even though I played Kenshi in MK9, it would take me a long time to play him at the top level because id have to develop a new skill set. Ive always thought this was what hindered a lot of counterpickers. Because switching from say Cyrax to Kung lao requires so much shifting of mental strategy it seems nearly impossible to play them both at the same high level and its rare i see someone be successful off a counterpick unless its totally braindead 8-2 MU lol.Anyway, i guess TL;DR your style is what determines what fundamentals you pick up..No one is perfect in all areas in one game IMO

 

[Filipino Man]

IMO you have to play each game differently in terms of footsies.

I think @Sajam explains it best what neutral and footsies are in Injustice. It's a lot different from in street fighter where it's trying to find which normals beats what but it's more about how to punish movement.

It's definitely true because movement is so limited in Injustice. You either dash forward or back or jump because walking doesn't really get you anywhere except for raven and maybe the flash.

Reactions aren't the most important thing in games at all. Reactions are an illusion. Sometimes you can react with certain things, such as my supers with wonder woman but for the most part you're looking for something already and you're preemptively getting ready for it. Reactions aren't a real thing. No one can react to a three frame move. Or a 9 frame move, or a 12 frame fireball. They just read it and accordingly punished with a situation in their head.

Adaptation is something you learn through experience. Period. Adapting is the hardest part of fighting games because it's so easy to know your characters options and your opponents options and if things don't work out the way it should on paper or in your head, it's hard to stray away from that but it is this adaptation that separates the good from the best.

 

[Big Pampering]

I would bet a 100 dollars @Slips is feeling himself while reading this thread. The amount of props he got in this thread lol