How much would "One More Patch" mean?

[ReD WolF]

As much as I enjoy this game, The walk speed is ass and the interactables are one of the most ridiculous things I've seen in a fighting game lol especially considering they are unavoidable in certain situations. Why wasn't the tourney standard to have shit turned off from the start of the game's life?

 

[Fred Marvel]

I'm seriously going to wonder what happens when some of the same situations pop up with MKX, like really powerful top tiers JUST LIKE THE PAST 2 GAMES, or people having problems with mobility.

variations (if doe well) should take care of the hrrendus matchup problems with top tiers and the mobility is amazing and theres background leveraging all over the stages
so why would the same problems show up in MKX? seems like theyve been addressed pretty well

 

[RTM2004]

I remember that the universal walk speed nerf greatly affected Rain who was potentially high tier.

It was the universal dash nerf that ruined Rain. He was never top tier to begin with, he was killed by patch casualties.

This universal nerf heavily benefited Kabal's iAGBs-Ground Saws so no character was able to forward dash then duck immediately without risk.
We might as well say that Freddy Krueger and Kenshi benefited from this as well same as Kitana's iAF zoning.

 

[EMPRESS_SunFire]

If Killer Frost was remotely viable anymore I may actually play the game

Now we know it... Injustice lost it's hype when Myles dropped it. Please come back.

 

[THTB]

variations (if doe well) should take care of the hrrendus matchup problems with top tiers and the mobility is amazing and theres background leveraging all over the stages
so why would the same problems show up in MKX? seems like theyve been addressed pretty well

We don't know how much variations will solve balance. Ideally, they should, but there's no guarantee some characters will just be flat out better in one variation. It's all in correlation to how they fit in with the game's overall mechanics themselves.

Mobility is awesome in UMvC3. Look at who is the best team in that game. Take a look at Blazblue CT, too. To go more obscure, DBZ Shin Budokai series (and to a lesser extent, Budokai 3). Bottom line is mobility won't solve anything if the tools are too powerful for even good mobility to handle.

 

[Barrogh]

I think that part of the problem this community has is that we let the perception of something dominate the reality.

Take MK9, for example. It's been said that a lot of people quit because of Kabal and Kenshi.

I ask you: How many people were playing Kabal at such a level as to 7-3/8-2 the cast?

I can think of: REO, Perfect Legend, CD Jr., Cat, SoonK, and Lulzlou? Am I forgetting anyone?

The number is even smaller for Kenshi: Pig of the Hut and Blind Man, unless there are a few others I'm missing.

That is a very small percentage when looking at the community as a whole. The chances of your average player even running int0 these people in tournament aren't extremely high. Why would people quit over characters with such small representation?

The same is true for Injustice. How many people play MMH and Batgirl at the highest level? How many High level General Zod mains can you find if you try? It's not like just anyone picks up these characters and wins tournaments with them. If they did, Floe would have won MLG, right?

So why are we taking The Prophet of Doom route with Injustice and its balance?

I think there is this idea that starts when people say, "This character is broken," or "you can't win." Other people, people of average or lesser skill see this and immediately feel as though they will never overcome the match-up. I've been guilty of this myself. Whether this is a matter of a lack of confidence or other issue is up for debate, but we all start parroting the same opinion until everyone is saying, "This character is broken" and "you can't win." We discount that in any match, at any time, anything can happen.

Take into account that there are also spectators, and a lot of them. They don't play those characters on high level, but they watch pros who do, and they get bored by lack of diversity. For those who care about competitive scene that's one less drive to play and improve themselves.

 

[Rude]

It does actually.

*social statistics major powers activate!*

If I'm using a measure such as gamma or phi to test if a pattern is occurring, I don't just use the percentage of DLC characters who are top tier in a vacuum, that percentage is graded based on the relative percentage of other all samples.

Basically, I would be doing what is called PRE or "Proportional Error reduction" that is "How many fewer mistakes do we make if we take a pattern into account?" If we make a certain amount of fewer mistakes or more, based on a given alpha level, we can assume the pattern holds based on that Alpha level (a traditional Alpha level is .05, meaning "with 95 % certainty")

So let's say we have a top 10 list.

IF we assume that a DLC character has a EQUAL chance of being top 10 as a non-dlc character, we will have the following top 10 (also, we will be using the status of the DLC characters AT THEIR RELEASE because this is when most are bought):

24 starting characters
6 dlc characters (scorpion, lobo, zatanna, martian, batgirl, zod)

Easy division here. There are 4 times as many starting characters as DLC, hence we can expect 4 times as many vanilla characters as DLC characters in the top 10.

Expected percent for vanilla: 80% top 10 occupation
Expected percent for DLC: 20 % top 10 occupation

Given Scorpion (on release), Martian, Batgirl, Zod are top tier:

Given percent for vanilla: 60% top 10 occupation
Given percent for DLC: 40% top 10 occupation

The only thing preventing me from turning this into a decisive PRE measure, is the small size of the sample. Even if I included the MK characters, I would be about 30 character samples short of getting a good gamma.


HOWEVER assuming the next game follows the same pattern as Injustice for the top 10 measure I listed above. I would conclusively get a gamma that refutes the negative hypothesis at a .05 alpha level, and could say with 95% certainty the following:

"DLC characters are more likely to be top tier then non-DLC characters by virtue of them being DLC rather than vanilla"

So balls in NRS's court on this one. If they release another game with DLC characters as far above the roster as they are now, I can litterally, mathematically prove my point (with 95% certainty due to alpha level)

The thing is, you're counting Scorpion in his pre-release state. That seems a little misguided, as in the game in its present form(which is a relevant detail because this is the version we play, not the version where Scorpion had problems), is not top tier.

So it seems to me there should be some account for that. And while you argument has changed my mind on some things. what I want to know is this: Why should DLC characters be bad? Should we not have them altogether? That would seem to be a waste, as DLC characters can extend the life of the game by giving players more content. As we see with the huge wave of special editions and pre-order bonuses, players love extra content in their games.

I think DLC working the way you've proven it does may be more about the industry rather than just NRS.

 

[Rude]

Take into account that there are also spectators, and a lot of them. They don't play those characters on high level, but they watch pros who do, and they get bored by lack of diversity. For those who care about competitive scene that's one less drive to play and improve themselves.

You have spectators and stream monsters that trash every game at tournament simply for the sake of it. Isn't that just a matter of taste? How many spectators believe things about Injustice that aren't founded to this day, such as Superman and BA being the best in the game?

Which is worse, I wonder? Seeing a match on stream where any number of real-life tournament factors(monitor lag, tourney nerves, lack of sleep, etc) could contribute to the win/loss?

Or being a spectator and watching the game's own community trash it and call it broken?

 

[Fred Marvel]

We don't know how much variations will solve balance. Ideally, they should, but there's no guarantee some characters will just be flat out better in one variation. It's all in correlation to how they fit in with the game's overall mechanics themselves.

Mobility is awesome in UMvC3. Look at who is the best team in that game. Take a look at Blazblue CT, too. To go more obscure, DBZ Shin Budokai series (and to a lesser extent, Budokai 3). Bottom line is mobility won't solve anything if the tools are too powerful for even good mobility to handle.

true we dont know enough about varations yet thats why i said if done well
i dont see your pint about marvel thogh, the best teams all revolve around doom vergil and zero who all have great mobility and the worst characters have shitty mobility
and mobility would definitely help the problems in igau, it would give some characters a fighting chance instead of them being outspaced all the time

 

[Jack Burton]

You have spectators and stream monsters that trash every game at tournament simply for the sake of it. Isn't that just a matter of taste? How many spectators believe things about Injustice that aren't founded to this day, such as Superman and BA being the best in the game?

Which is worse, I wonder? Seeing a match on stream where any number of real-life tournament factors(monitor lag, tourney nerves, lack of sleep, etc) could contribute to the win/loss?

Or being a spectator and watching the game's own community trash it and call it broken?

Definitely the latter.

 

[THTB]

true we dont know enough about varations yet thats why i said if done well
i dont see your pint about marvel thogh, the best teams all revolve around doom vergil and zero who all have great mobility and the worst characters have shitty mobility
and mobility would definitely help the problems in igau, it would give some characters a fighting chance instead of them being outspaced all the time

The BEST team in Marvel uses Morrigan zoning. In combination with Doom missile assist and anchor Vergil...most of the cast just loses to this team by way of dying before they even get in. And I'm not talking about low mobility teams, either...even high mobility teams have issues with MorriDoom.

 

[Rude]

The BEST team in Marvel uses Morrigan zoning. In combination with Doom missile assist and anchor Vergil...most of the cast just loses to this team by way of dying before they even get in. And I'm not talking about low mobility teams, either...even high mobility teams have issues with MorriDoom.

Who first used that team?

 

[THTB]

Who first used that team?

Chris G. But even though it's MorriDoom that's ridiculous, Doom can be absent and Morrigan is still problematic (not as much, though).

FilipinoChamp just took Curleh Mustache using MorriDoomNeto. It was actually pretty genius how he used the team, tbh. Man was stocked on Level 3s for days.

 

[Peckapowa]

I agree with that. Killer Frost, good as she is, has seen less growth than other characters through the year due to her design. Though I feel Doomsday is a great design for a fighting game. He's an in your face character with an advancing special that can go through projectiles. He deals low damage, but can deal a lot of it quick. If you try to back up from him in the mid range game, you'll back yourself into the corner, where he excels most. He's got a trait that increases his bullying playstyle, and a dash that puts him right back in your grill even if he doesn't use his advancing special. He's an in your face character that can really get in your face. While players may play him brain dead, I think design wise, that's pretty damn awesome.

any design that doesn't have to think at all to get in and go ham is a bad design and bad for competitive play in my opinion. A character that doesn't need to have any concept of spacing, counter-zoning, or footsies, only guesses is pretty awful in my opinion.

i want a game that rewards complete players.

 

[Fred Marvel]

The BEST team in Marvel uses Morrigan zoning. In combination with Doom missile assist and anchor Vergil...most of the cast just loses to this team by way of dying before they even get in. And I'm not talking about low mobility teams, either...even high mobility teams have issues with MorriDoom.

ah thats why you meant.
morridoom might be the best team but thats arguable, yes the zoning is ridiculous. supposedly there are some characters who can handle it but idk enough about the game to say whether they can or ca not

 

[Peckapowa]

We don't know how much variations will solve balance. Ideally, they should, but there's no guarantee some characters will just be flat out better in one variation. It's all in correlation to how they fit in with the game's overall mechanics themselves.

Mobility is awesome in UMvC3. Look at who is the best team in that game. Take a look at Blazblue CT, too. To go more obscure, DBZ Shin Budokai series (and to a lesser extent, Budokai 3). Bottom line is mobility won't solve anything if the tools are too powerful for even good mobility to handle.

i guarantee you the variations will not be balanced. i'll put money on half the cast having one variation being op. as a rule of thumb top tiers are smaller hitbox and mobile, the only non-mobile top tiers are characters that dominate space so much they don't have to give a fuck.

i don't trust anyone to balance a game with this many new mechanics, let alone netherrealm. its just something you sacrifice for innovation and depth. that being said exploring these variations will be extremely fun, i just hope aquaman kung lao martian kenshi kabal or zod (or cyrax) don't exist. Atleast no ex cartwheel or teleport 3.

I do hope they learn some things from mk9 and injustice and there aren't many or any useless strings or things that have f'ed up risk reward by nature

 

[NoobHunter420]

*somewhere in the patch flash get buffed one more time*

all he needs is a armored spin from running man cancels and he will be be the god tier he should be.

 

[Mr Aquaman]

If we compare Aquaman and MMH to Kabal why are ony one MMH and 1 Aquaman winning? Its REO with Kabal all over again? And why the fuck si 16bit making everyone else in the community look bad with CATWOMAN, obviously the game needs work if catwoman can win. Why has there been nothing but further diversity in top 8s. Oxygen bodied east coast aquas at CW, LOBO. Hawkgirls fucking up top supermen. I saw the top MMH lose to Catwoman, I saw the lobos and killer frosts only lose by a hit to sonic. I saw Grundy fuck everyone up. Ive even seen ares do well. Deathstroke still make top 8s? After he RULED injustice and got the nerf hammer. Still supermans in top 8s after getting nerfed into the ground. Black adams. My god what has NRS done to make this game so imbalanced. Its like if everyone picked aquaman they would make top 8. It's like he doesnt have to work for wins, shit i probably have one of the best aquamans and even I struggle. And MMH, fuck trying to master that guy, i mean if PL cant beat everyone then hes obviously not braindead enough. (Hold that). This rant could never end, and if someone says something ill continue it. Point is, we still dont know shit about the game, keep trying to level up, and stop crying.

 

[Eldriken]

If we compare Aquaman and MMH to Kabal why are ony one MMH and 1 Aquaman winning? Its REO with Kabal all over again? And why the fuck si 16bit making everyone else in the community look bad with CATWOMAN, obviously the game needs work if catwoman can win. Why has there been nothing but further diversity in top 8s. Oxygen bodied east coast aquas at CW, LOBO. Hawkgirls fucking up top supermen. I saw the top MMH lose to Catwoman, I saw the lobos and killer frosts only lose by a hit to sonic. I saw Grundy fuck everyone up. Ive even seen ares do well. Deathstroke still make top 8s? After he RULED injustice and got the nerf hammer. Still supermans in top 8s after getting nerfed into the ground. Black adams. My god what has NRS done to make this game so imbalanced. Its like if everyone picked aquaman they would make top 8. It's like he doesnt have to work for wins, shit i probably have one of the best aquamans and even I struggle. And MMH, fuck trying to master that guy, i mean if PL cant beat everyone then hes obviously not braindead enough. (Hold that). This rant could never end, and if someone says something ill continue it. Point is, we still dont know shit about the game, keep trying to level up, and stop crying.

Please do continue your rant. I enjoy them very much. I'm being serious. =D

 

[Scoot Magee]

People REALLY need to stop complaining about the top tiers in this game. Are there not characters that these top tiers go even with and lose to? Boo hoo you've chosen to be loyal to a character that is at a disadvantage to this character. It's up to you to learn a secondary to help you deal with the bad match ups your character faces. This isn't a new concept to fighting games.

It's not a new concept, I agree 100%. It's just that the top in this game have some really stupid shit compared to a lot of other games. The game is fun but I can see why some people tend to not play seriously anymore. Not to mention the games terrible online and spread out community, so many match ups haven't even been explored...

 

[NRF CharlieMurphy]

Point is, we still dont know shit about the game

movement is ass

i know this.

 

[Scoot Magee]

If we compare Aquaman and MMH to Kabal why are ony one MMH and 1 Aquaman winning? Its REO with Kabal all over again? And why the fuck si 16bit making everyone else in the community look bad with CATWOMAN, obviously the game needs work if catwoman can win. Why has there been nothing but further diversity in top 8s. Oxygen bodied east coast aquas at CW, LOBO. Hawkgirls fucking up top supermen. I saw the top MMH lose to Catwoman, I saw the lobos and killer frosts only lose by a hit to sonic. I saw Grundy fuck everyone up. Ive even seen ares do well. Deathstroke still make top 8s? After he RULED injustice and got the nerf hammer. Still supermans in top 8s after getting nerfed into the ground. Black adams. My god what has NRS done to make this game so imbalanced. Its like if everyone picked aquaman they would make top 8. It's like he doesnt have to work for wins, shit i probably have one of the best aquamans and even I struggle. And MMH, fuck trying to master that guy, i mean if PL cant beat everyone then hes obviously not braindead enough. (Hold that). This rant could never end, and if someone says something ill continue it. Point is, we still dont know shit about the game, keep trying to level up, and stop crying.

I just want to emphasize my points about the terrible online play and spread out community in response to this post. A lot of things can happen when people are unfamiliar with a game. Injustice is technically still kinda new and evolving. I'll go even further by saying it's evolving slower than other games due to reasons I stated previously.

 

[Chongo]

If they made Nightwings mb Flipkick like +4 or +5 on block I would play a whole lot more

 

[Mr Aquaman]

movement is ass

i know this.

pick the flash, problem solved, i dont even cry about movement and I play ares, I move at the speed of a dying walrus

 

[Mr Aquaman]

I just want to emphasize my points about the terrible online play and spread out community in response to this post. A lot of things can happen when people are unfamiliar with a game. Injustice is technically still kinda new and evolving. I'll go even further by saying it's evolving slower than other games due to reasons I stated previously.

My scene died because they were sick of the same 3 people who actually understood win, and I haven't found a way to get them back. They feel going 0-2 in sf makes them look better than going 1-2 or 2-2 in injustice. I will quote the great Bronn from Game of Thrones - "There's no cure for being a cunt." It is really hard to play this game with no scene, I know the struggle, that is why the THEOs and Jupiters exist. Look at the weekly competition. Mine is some washed up DS player, mace charge tossers, a decent trident rusher, and thats it. It's hard but we gotta do what we gotta do.