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How are the villains "weak"?

Swindle

Philanthropist & Asshole
I feel like some people don't realize that the Kombat Kids aren't actually teenagers despite their nickname. Jin is not a novice, Cassie and Jacqui are experienced soldiers and Takeda is easily Scorpion's best student. These aren't scrappy nobodies Raiden picked from the streets.

And it's funny how people complain about Kahn looking weak in the NRS games when he won only one fight in the Midway games and has been shown as more of a physical threat in the NRS games (albeit with his tactical skills being downplayed). To say nothing of Kitana, a demigoddess with 10,000 years of experience and who would be very familiar with anything Kahn could do in a fight, defeating him is somehow less believable than the Bruce Lee clone who can shoot fireballs.
Read through your posts, and it looks like you just hate Liu Kang.
 
Jebus, this whole conversation has gotten nuts.

Power levels are ridiculous. Sometimes people win, sometimes they loose. Sometimes people rise up, sometimes they fall low. Sometimes people take action, sometimes they're too complaisant or afraid to.

No one, not Shao, not Liu, not Shinnok, not Raiden, etc. are 100% absolute.
 

BumbleBee

Power of Toasty
Villains in MK universe are bound to follow the example of "i'm evil, therefore i lose" stereotype, that's all there is to it. If some of you forgot, these characters (well, most of them) were conceived and written by a former comic book writer, so, it comes with the territory, naturally.
 

Eddy Wang

Skarlet scientist
Despite what this outcome maybe, i'm actually enjoying this thread and checking it everyday, every post is a gem.

It's been a while since we've discussed MK lore, so big up to Cicada for starting this up, and everyone who participated in.
 

SaltShaker

In Zoning We Trust
Cassie lost every fight she was in up until her own chapter. Kitana is established as an assassin and fighter with over a millennium of experience from her first appearance.
Cassie literally got super powers from her ancestry which powered her up enough with "the Glow" to defeat an also super powered Shinnok. Whether you like the fact the she was powered up is irrelevant, because in fact she unlocked the power to win the fight. It made sense story-wise, just like Sindel being powered up when beating/killing half the heroes in MK9 made sense.

Kitana being "really old and experienced" is just/was the same exact Kitana that gets beat by bums and regular fighters throughout the canon, but one day was strong enough to beat prime Shao Khan, and then not long after was losing to Sheeva.

Dhalsim would be jealous of your reaching. These are in no way comparable.
 

Cicada 5

Noob
Cassie literally got super powers from her ancestry which powered her up enough with "the Glow" to defeat an also super powered Shinnok. Whether you like the fact the she was powered up is irrelevant, because in fact she unlocked the power to win the fight. It made sense story-wise, just like Sindel being powered up when beating/killing half the heroes in MK9 made sense.

Kitana being "really old and experienced" is just/was the same exact Kitana that gets beat by bums and regular fighters throughout the canon, but one day was strong enough to beat prime Shao Khan, and then not long after was losing to Sheeva.

Dhalsim would be jealous of your reaching. These are in no way comparable.
Kitana is descended from gods. Also, the guy whose soul was powering up Sindel had been beaten by Kitana once already.
 

zerosebaz

What's the point of a random Krypt?
Nothing in the game states he just ran away from him.
Nothing in the game states he beat him.

This was not the case before. In fact, Netherealm and Earth's Hell were considered separate places before NRS merged them into one location. Deadly Alliance did say that being in the Netherealm gave Scorpion a strength boost that made him dangerous to Quan Chi (why Quan Chi didn't receive a similar boost, I don't know) but it was never suggested Scorpion was weak to any real degree when not in the Netherealm.
I don't remember there being a distinction between Hell and the Netherrealm, Lucifer is actually cited as being the former ruler of the Netherrealm in MKD.
Regarding Scorpion, if he is stronger in the Netherrealm, that means he is weaker when outside of it, there is no other way to interprete this.
 
One thing we know from our own competitive community and fighting games in general is how important mindset is. If you're nervous, have doubts, don't believe in yourself, feel outclassed, etc. these all play a part in you defeating yourself.

Having the right mental attitude goes a long way in fighting games, and in many other things in life.

We've seen upsets happen in both online and offline tournaments before. It doesn't happen all the time, of course, but it does happen.

For Kitana, while she served Shao for almost 10,000 years, she never fully believed in what she was doing. She always had doubts about how things were. She also feared Shao, "father" though he was.

When she stepped into the arena to challenge and defeat Shao, this is one of the first times we've seen her truly focused, truly committed, and truly believing in herself and the justness of what she was doing. She had the right mindset and made the upset happen.
 

SaltShaker

In Zoning We Trust
Kitana is descended from gods. Also, the guy whose soul was powering up Sindel had been beaten by Kitana once already.
Right, yet Kitana still shows literally nothing to suggest that she could take a prime Shao Khan, ever, no feat, no power up, nothing.

Unlike Cassie who got a Super Saiyan power up directly before her fight with powered up Shinnok. Which makes perfect sense why she was able to beat him.

There's no comparison here. You're just ignoring context for the sake of it at this point.
 

BumbleBee

Power of Toasty
It's also interesting to look back and reflect on the fact, that, besides Shinnok, Midway always felt that the final bosses are synonymous with overbearing towering brutes. Not that i have anything against that, just something i never really stopped to think about.
 

zerosebaz

What's the point of a random Krypt?
It's also interesting to look back and reflect on the fact, that, besides Shinnok, Midway always felt that the final bosses are synonymous with overbearing towering brutes. Not that i have anything against that, just something i never really stopped to think about.
Exepting also Shang Tsung in MK1, and him and Quan Chi in Deadly Alliance.
 

Felipe_Gewehr

Twinktile
Exepting also Shang Tsung in MK1, and him and Quan Chi in Deadly Alliance.
So its either a towering brute or a somewhat slim sorcerer, and sometimes we get the brute as the sub-boss (goro in MK1, Moloch in MKDA). And then there's MKX Shinnok who is both lol
 

BumbleBee

Power of Toasty
Exepting also Shang Tsung in MK1, and him and Quan Chi in Deadly Alliance.
I'll be honest with you - as a kid i never treated MK1 Shang (MK 1992... MK Original...god, this about to become stupid) as someone boss-worthy, even though he is technically. Goro is the one and he's way more difficult anyway.

Huh, actually this answers the question this thread asks perfectly.
 
Johnny Cage was an absolute joke character dying 3 times during midway era. Even in MK9 he loses a lot and is being saved by the plot or pity: Ermac could have killed him, Cyrax could have killed him, Jax beat his ass, Kitana beat his ass, Shao Kahn fireballs his ass, Sindel doesn't kill him for a the plot. Someone in NRS was a huge fan of Cage and made him and his family the main characters of MKX lol. His family "gift" is so bullshit I'd believe if Kitana found her inner Jerrod super duper power to take down Shao motherfucking Kahn 1v1.
Johnny only died in the midway era because of OUTSIDE forces, if Pesina hadn’t been a doofus cage wouldn’t have sat out mk3.

Liu has the personality of stale Walmart walnut bread so I’m glad Johnny was the hero of MKX and Cassie as well to an extent.
 
Right, yet Kitana still shows literally nothing to suggest that she could take a prime Shao Khan, ever, no feat, no power up, nothing.

Unlike Cassie who got a Super Saiyan power up directly before her fight with powered up Shinnok. Which makes perfect sense why she was able to beat him.

There's no comparison here. You're just ignoring context for the sake of it at this point.
It’s always possible that NRS Shao Kahn is weaker than midway Shao Kahn, he also could have under estimated Kitana just like he did Liu kang, the writing is all over the place with him.

Remember he broke Laos neck from behind, I feel like that was way out of character for such an arrogant personality as Shao Kahn, Especially after all the people Lao had just defeated it made Kahn look scared.

He also underestimated and jobbed to enraged Liu kang in fairly short order.

Where as in the old timeline Liu beat him in MK2 but it was Lao and Liu fighting him together in 3 with Lao sustaining life threatening injuries in the battle.
 

BumbleBee

Power of Toasty
Despite his appearance, Midway Shao was also a cunning tactician, while NRS Shao is a poor man's Conan cosplayer. 11 drove that point to the extreme.
 
By this logic, no human should ever win in Mortal Kombat.
It's almost as if this was used to setup the extreme danger and difficulty of the situation and it would be a once in a generation talent who could achieve it. Like say...a chosen one.

Jebus, this whole conversation has gotten nuts.

Power levels are ridiculous. Sometimes people win, sometimes they loose. Sometimes people rise up, sometimes they fall low. Sometimes people take action, sometimes they're too complaisant or afraid to.

No one, not Shao, not Liu, not Shinnok, not Raiden, etc. are 100% absolute.
"They had an off day" is weak writing when you've spent forever establishing them as ass kicking machines. There are stories where that works, MK has never been told like one. I'd like it if it was, but it isn't.

One thing we know from our own competitive community and fighting games in general is how important mindset is. If you're nervous, have doubts, don't believe in yourself, feel outclassed, etc. these all play a part in you defeating yourself.

Having the right mental attitude goes a long way in fighting games, and in many other things in life.

We've seen upsets happen in both online and offline tournaments before. It doesn't happen all the time, of course, but it does happen.

For Kitana, while she served Shao for almost 10,000 years, she never fully believed in what she was doing. She always had doubts about how things were. She also feared Shao, "father" though he was.

When she stepped into the arena to challenge and defeat Shao, this is one of the first times we've seen her truly focused, truly committed, and truly believing in herself and the justness of what she was doing. She had the right mindset and made the upset happen.
And i would be 100% fine with all of this if it was actually in the story and not just head canon. As it was, it was out of no where and not "earned".

It all boils down to storytelling. Same in Manga, comics, movies, shows, books, and wrestling or whatever else you can think of. You have arc's and people should ideally "earn" achievements unless you're trying to make a point. MK 11 was AWFUL for this. Kitana killing shao SHOULD be a great plot point, but they don't set it up, and they don't even deliver on it.
 

zerosebaz

What's the point of a random Krypt?
So its either a towering brute or a somewhat slim sorcerer, and sometimes we get the brute as the sub-boss (goro in MK1, Moloch in MKDA). And then there's MKX Shinnok who is both lol
Haha, yeah.


Where as in the old timeline Liu beat him in MK2 but it was Lao and Liu fighting him together in 3 with Lao sustaining life threatening injuries in the battle.
Did they fight him together? I thought Lao had already "died" when Liu Kang fought Shao Khan.

Despite his appearance, Midway Shao was also a cunning tactician, while NRS Shao is a poor man's Conan cosplayer. 11 drove that point to the extreme.
Yeah, that was one of the reasons I liked him. But since MK9 he is not even a shadow of his former self.

This thread really has 8 pages and I contributed to it.







I really am part of the problem.
The problem are the friends we made along the way.
 

Dankster Morgan

It is better this way
It's "anything MK-related" forum now really. And there's no harm mixing in lore topics, i see nothing "dorky" about it.
Yeah I don’t mean it as an insult, I’m having fun with the absurdity of presumably a bunch of grown adults with full time jobs and full lives, spending their time arguing over MK lore. It’s awesome, and I’m glad that despite having to take on more responsibilities that I still have time to be a dork. I was 15 when I first started playing MK and I’m still a young guy, but I’m far busier than when I was a kid - building a career, working towards a Master’s degree, enjoying married life, and occasionally competing in powerlifting. I’m sure a lot of you guys are in the same boat or experienced something similar when you were my age. Not to be over dramatic, but I feel blessed to still be able to be a dork since a lot of guys get forced out of the hobbies they enjoy as life happens. I think this is an undeniably dorky conversation to have but I enjoy it, you don’t have to “identify” as a dork, but I am what I am, and I’m a fuckin dork. I love MK lore even if I am here more for strategy, tech, and meeting people to play with etc, I enjoy these topics.