Command Grab - Bomb Trap PATCH?

[smalltalk]

You guys are so fucked if they nerf that bomb trap

 

[Sultani]

It depends on what they actually end up doing with it.

If they end up nerfing (or, rather fixing) the currently bugged CG tech frames, then it will still be fine. Just not so easy and predictable, which is better anyway. I've stopped using the bomb trap from netting someone in anticipation that very soon I won't be able to do that anymore.

People are going to start waiting for you to try it and prep themselves to tech it if you're in close to them. I just poke people a couple times and then CG them when they try to block the pokes.

You'll still be able to do it. Just not "oh cool I netted them" then just walk up and start it.

millionth time. The bomb trap is not broken. the CG is. And it's been confirmed that it's a bug.

I really hope that when NRS makes the decision here, they really consider a couple things. First, that complaints about the bomb trap itself reveal that the complainer doesn't even understand what the issue is and hasn't even considered a counter.

Secondly, tons of people complaining about it don't even know what it is. I had some dude spazzing on me the other day because I did jp, BP, FP, sticky bomb, mid bomb, uppercut, overhead bomb, FK, FK net. He freaked out calling it a "lame bomb trap that's getting nerfed."

man... If you're going to complain about something, make sure you understand what you're complaining about.

 

[Eazail]

Lol! ^^

I cant believe someone complained about the uppercut bomb set up. Theres nothing wrong at all with it. It looks cool as well. If you take that away Cyrax has nothing at all...

 

[cgerrr]

you mean the cancel into short bomb after the first hit of tooth and nail (f+2) yes thats still there. and while its great from a net its pretty useless naked, cyrax has no low starter combo and has trouble applying pressure at close range, the CG helps with both these problems you don't want to let cyrax get in and land the bomb trap so the threat is always there allowing cyrax to use other options.
Its not a win button, learn to keep your opponent out and dont waist your meter

Thanks for confirming that Cyrax STILL HAS unbreakable bomb trap starter after the net (aside from Breaker of course).

But why you cheap shotting me with something like "learn to play the game"? I never did complain about bomb trap by itself and I certainly know how important meter management is. All I said, that people are lazy and biased toward their believes: NRS doing their job balancing the game and from many standpoints they're doing it adequately. But people just too lazy/biased to actually try to see the picture from other standpoints, while always exposing only their (profitable to them of course) way of seeing it. It's just spoiled and counterproductive for everyone behavior.

P.s. I'll admit, that bomb trap is not a "win button": it's only a half of it, coz you need actually to "push" it twice to actually kill an opp :evil:.

 

[Sultani]

Thanks for confirming that Cyrax STILL HAS unbreakable bomb trap starter after the net (aside from Breaker of course).

But why you cheap shotting me with something like "learn to play the game"? I never did complain about bomb trap by itself and I certainly know how important meter management is. All I said, that people are lazy and biased toward their believes: NRS doing their job balancing the game and from many standpoints they're doing it adequately. But people just too lazy/biased to actually try to see the picture from other standpoints, while always exposing only their (profitable to them of course) way of seeing it. It's just spoiled and counterproductive for everyone behavior.

P.s. I'll admit, that bomb trap is not a "win button": it's only a half of it, coz you need actually to "push" it twice to actually kill an opp :evil:.

You can call the gigantic amount of logical reasons why the bomb trap isn't broken and the CG is as a "biased view" of things, but in 8 pages of discussion, there has not been one single valid reason why the bomb trap is lame or requires any sort of balancing at all aside from fixing the tech window of the CG.

That is a fact. Facts and biased views aren't the same thing. Don't pretend they are.

I am open to look at this from the viewpoint of people who do think it's a "cheap" tactic, but, again, no one has been able to give one good reason why they feel this way. Most people haven't even tried. They've just complained. Reasons why it,s not.

1: The CG is techable
2: The tech frames of the CG are being fixed
3: The start of the combo is techable and the entire thing doesn't even do that much damage
4: Every single hit in the combo is breakable aside from the bomb
5: If you break the BP, the bomb doesn't hit you

Tons more reasons that I'm sure you won't read, since they're already here in this discussion.

Look... the start of the combo with scaling reset is techable, which cannot be said for too many other characters' combos. After that, even if you don't tech the CG, every hit in the combo is breakable which is absolutely no different than any other combo in the game. Most of those combos aren't techable on the very first hit though.

ICyrax's combo starts with b + fp. My BnB with Ermac does too. Cyrax's b + fp is techable. Ermac's is not. Ermac's has less hits, even less breakable hits, is 100 times easier to do, does 43%, and that's without even needing a damage scaling reset.

Can someone give me an example of why the bomb trap IS imbalanced without just claiming it is without reason?

 

[Eazail]

My only issue with the bomb trap is the insane amount of damage + 2 frame cg tech window. If they were to only widen the cg tech window to where it should be, id be ok with that because then you would have to work slightly harder to catch people with the trap.

 

[Sultani]

My only issue with the bomb trap is the insane amount of damage + 2 frame cg tech window. If they were to only widen the cg tech window to where it should be, id be ok with that because then you would have to work slightly harder to catch people with the trap.

Exactly.

Andeven then, it's a combo with a tech window from the start. Other people have combos that do not have a tech window at the start. Like, every combo that doesn't start with a throw.

The tech window of 2 - 3 frames is a known bug. That's getting fixed. Nothing further necessary because the tactic will have more than sufficient counters once that happens.

 

[Helter Skelter]

Can you guys compete without the Bomb Trap, because it's all that ever gets talked about and it's be becoming kinda depressing?

 

[xZEPPELIx]

Can you guys compete without the Bomb Trap, because it's all that ever gets talked about and it's be becoming kinda depressing?

It was a big part of his game. Essentially all you had to do was make someone block a jump punch or get hit with a random net.

 

[Zebster]

Just wondering, isn't there other ways to set up a bomb trap without the command grab? Think Tom say there was more, and the command grab one was just the easiest one to do.

 

[Vulcan Hades]

If they were to only widen the cg tech window to where it should be, id be ok with that because then you would have to work slightly harder to catch people with the trap.

Except doing so could possibly render the bomb trap useless at high levels. As I'm sure tournament players would have no trouble teching it 100% of the time if they make the cg tech window too big.

But you're right, the way I see it these are the 2 most basic solutions:

1. Increase tech window by a few frames (but not make it too easy to tech)

and/or:

2. Increase damage scaling after command grab to avoid 50% combos.

So in other words: make it almost guaranteed but do less damage. Or: make it fairly techable but award big damage.

Either would be good. But they need to keep it in for sure. It's not broken imo because you can't really loop it like the Quan Chi Rune Trap.

 

[Sultani]

Helter: Yes, I can compete without it. That's not even the point. But asking that question would be like asking any other player if they can compete without using their character's combos. And uh.. yea... how dare we talk about the bomb trap in a thread that's titled "bomb trap patch"..... :/

Zeb: There's obviously other ways to hit someone with a bomb and also be close enough to get a NJP off and start the combo. It's called getting lucky. The CG is, as you said, the easiest way to "trap" someone. Calling it a trap is kinda wrong imo anyway though. You are no more "trapped" in this combo than you are "trapped" in any other big combo once the opponent starts it on you. Use of bombs (outside of metered combos and post CG trap) are essentially priamrily for zoning purposes.

Hades: Increasing the damage scaling doesn't make sense when there's going to be more than enough counters in place already. Every character has a big combo that deals around 45ish %. Should we increase the damage scaling across the board then?

It's pretty easy.. The CG is a throw. It has a tech window that is currently much smaller than other throws. This was not intended. It is being corrected. If you don't tech Cyrax's throw, you're caught in his combo unless you break it. Why is that lame? I could say pretty much exactly the same thing about every single character in the game. If you don't block Sub Zero's BP, you get caught in his combo. If you don't block Ermac's overhead b + fp, or BP, you're stuck in his combo. If you don't block Mileena's b + fp or overhead, Reptile's FK, etc etc.. you get the idea.

Every combo starts somehow. Cyrax's is unique because it's a throw instead of a hit, making it more easily defendable than seriously everyithng else. Does the conclusion follow from this that his combo is lame? Would it make sense for all of us to start saying "omg (insert character name here)'s combo is imbalancd because as soon as it starts I have to waste my meter to break it!"?

Fuck no it wouldn't. The arguments in favor of nerfing the bomb trap combo further than fixing the CG tech frames are extremely weak and just flat out don't even make sense. Let's just take away Cyrax's combo because people want to ball up to avoid combos and are scared of the idea of pressing a different button to avoid one. Why does it make sense to make Cyrax have zero damaging combos outside of using meters? Remaking him entirely would be dumb, but since he'd have no good juggles without the bomb trap or using a meter, he'd have to be able to combo into the overhead bomb, and use it more than once without blowing people back, because most other characters that have overheads in their combos can use it twice in a row, if not three times.

 

[cgerrr]

@ Sultani
Hey, hey, hold your horses, man and what’s with the aggression?

You can call the gigantic amount of logical reasons why the bomb trap isn't broken and the CG is as a "biased view" of things, but in 8 pages of discussion, there has not been one single valid reason why the bomb trap is lame or requires any sort of balancing at all aside from fixing the tech window of the CG.

That is a fact. Facts and biased views aren't the same thing. Don't pretend they are.

This has nothing to do with what I said: please don’t use your logic to twist mine and there’s no need for you to tell me what to do, so please.

I am open to look at this from the viewpoint of people who do think it's a "cheap" tactic, but, again, no one has been able to give one good reason why they feel this way. Most people haven't even tried. They've just complained.

Ok, let me quote myself here:

I never did complain about bomb trap by itself…

No? Ok, let’s do it again:

I never did complain about bomb trap by itself…

Are we cool now? Yeah? Ok, let’s move on.

Bias #1:

Look... the start of the combo with scaling reset is techable, which cannot be said for too many other characters' combos.

Cyrax has other combo and combo starters aside of CG.

Bias #2:

After that, even if you don't tech the CG, every hit in the combo is breakable which is absolutely no different than any other combo in the game.

Exactly. Thus, it doesn’t prove anything – it’s an “neutral” argument which doesn’t benefit either point, but you used it to try to prove yours, which = bias.

Bias #3:

Most of those combos aren't techable on the very first hit though

It seems you’re describing here a bomb trap combo after opp was netted. First hit of that combo is Net and many characters have the same circumstances as Cyrax after their respectable disablers.

Bias #4:

ICyrax's combo starts with b + fp. My BnB with Ermac does too. Cyrax's b + fp is techable. Ermac's is not.

What. Are. You. Talking. About?
is not a throw, thus it can NOT be teched. And if you mean Breaker-ed after net, than look at the Bias #3.

Bias #5

Cyrax's is unique because it's a throw instead of a hit, making it more easily defendable than seriously everyithng else.

It’s one of the most biased and moreover false statement I ever read: are you seriously think like that or you just defend your point? Should I explain why throws are harder or at least have the same degree of difficulty to defend than just simply defend by pressing or ? Man I should stop here, that much bias is beyond me.


Oh, and let me re-quote myself again, it seems you’ve missed some first time:

I never did complain about bomb trap by itself....All I said, that people are lazy and biased toward their believes: NRS doing their job balancing the game and from many standpoints they're doing it adequately. But people just too lazy/biased to actually try to see the picture from other standpoints, while always exposing only their (profitable to them of course) way of seeing it. It's just spoiled and counterproductive for everyone behavior.

P.s. No hate fellow fighters: there should be always an opposition to keep discussion going, right?

 

[Sultani]

First of all, the statement that "most people just complain" is a general statement that is not directed at you, because well, "most people" is a phrase that could not possibly be misinterpretted as a direct address rather than a generalization. So, I'll just ignore your repeat quotes of yourself that are totally irrelevant.

Now, why don't you tell me why you think simply stating that a CG to start a combo (which was specifically called out as the scaling reset combo, so "other combos" can be completely ignored and are completely irrelevant), is in any way a bias and not a statement of fact? The bomb trap combo starts with a command grab. That command grab can be teched. That's a bias? You may want to re-evaluate your interpretation of what a bias actually is.

What you called "bias #2" is another simple statement of fact. Hits are breakable. The point there, which apparently needs explanation, is that if the combo is breakable just like every other combo, then it's not overpowered or imbalanced at all. It's not a neutral argument at all when there's people saying that they shouldn't have to use their meter to break Cyrax's combo.

"Bias #3" is yet another statement of fact coupled with an assumption that you've based on false premises. I am talking about the combo without netting first. Starting the combo from a net can be completely ignored. Go back and read the thread because I don't like repeating myself. And again, calling the CG techable isn't a bias. It's just flat out true.

Bias #4, yet another statement of fact. Hits can't be teched but throws can was exactly my point.

Bias #5, Any combo beginning with a hit instead of a throw can be blocked. But, blocking the first hit doesn't stop the person from continuing the combo. Teching a throw stops everything entirely and the combo cannot be continued in any way shape or form. You need to press one button to stop the command grab. In other combos where overheads are involved, you need to standing block / low block accordingly, which cannot possibly be as easy as pressing one button to tech the CG, which flat out halts the combo and leaves zero chance that any subsequent hit will land, which is not true for combos consisting of hit starters. Since you're so infatuated with quoting yourself though, maybe you should go back and read that you said that teching a throw is at least the same degree of difficulty as blocking a hit. Which speaks to my point that defense of the command grab scaling reset bomb trap is no harder than any other combo. You actually agreed with me there. And, since this combo is the only one that I'm aware of that starts with a throw, it is the only combo that can be teched and completely halted from the beginning, which means it's the only combo in the game where the most effective counter is to do even LESS than correctly block a couple hits.

You tried taking the same statement of fact and trying to turn it into 5 separate biased statements, and did a very poor job of it because you effectively said, "you are biased five times because you said the CG can be teched and subsequent hits can be broken."

Maybe I'm also just biased if I tell you that the Canucks beat the Sharks last night. Taking clear statement of indisputable facts and calling them biased doesn't make them so. Quoting them in a manner that even more clearly shows them to be statements of fact do not help you in proving that they are biased statements (let me help you. Saying something that's true isn't biased).

Your entire post is based on the premise that I'm biased in my statements, and you tried to show this by incorrectly using the word 5 times whle trying to apply it to the same thing. It would be like if I quoted you saying that I was biased, and then was like, "omg see right here! this proves you are a racist!"

This shouldn't be surprising though, this is afterall a discussion about Cyrax.

Feel free to PM me if you want to continue this discussion, but some trivial banter is not worthy of derailing this thread, especially considering you're not even opposed to the combo.. So, is there any real reason that anyone can offer as to why the "bomb trap" needs to be removed? I still count zero good ones in 8.5 pages.

 

[cgerrr]

@Sultani
Ok, man, I don’t like the hostility and passive aggression towards me and anyone who disagrees with you in your posts, so further I’ll try to politely ignore your posts, but for the record:

You are using logical arguments to prove false and half right facts and twist other people logical statements to your benefit. It’s called false logic. It hinders any constructivism and progress inside of the community and is a common trait of experienced forumers and sadly trolls. And there is no need to depict who you actually are, because it won’t change anything and I’m here for different purposes and those are not forum wars.

Peace.

P.s. So much lovely “drama queen” here, can't resist:

This shouldn't be surprising though, this is afterall a discussion about Cyrax.

P.s.s.

It would be like if I quoted you saying that I was biased, and then was like, "omg see right here! this proves you are a racist!"

Racist? Lol really? You've improved my mood. Peace again.

P.s.s.s. Ok, let's move on people: can anyone explain how can Cyrax be presumably A+ tier (according to Tom Brady latest tier list) when he guaranteed to lose his Bomb Trap after the full patch. And if he is legitimately A+ after the full patch - what's all the commotion about actually losing Bomb Trap?

 

[Juggs]

Okay guys, stop with the insults, there's no need for that. Stay on topic, or you will get infracted. Last warning.

 

[Mad_Sweeney]

It's like World War III in here guys, relax. Is the bomb trap bullshit? Absolutely. Should it be removed? No. The fact that the tech window is so small is what makes it stupid. Widen that, and you've got yourself a balanced Cyrax. But it's easy to complain that the trap is all Cyrax has when it's ALL YOU USE. A character is only gimmicky when you develop your entire strategy around one gimmick. Cyrax has a stun, just like the other higher tier characters like Scorpion and Sub Zero--the net! Use it well.

 

[Poto2222]

Just give us 4 or 5 frames to tech the CG and make it a WHOLE combo (instead of reseting the damage scaling in the middle of it) and I'm done.

 

[THTB]

I think about the trap being gone a little bit more, and I actually kinda like it. I still think it wasn't bad, and only the tech window needed to be fixed, but think about it like this...Cyrax is probably even scarier to trade projectiles with than even Sub. 51% w/ 1 bar of meter for a projectile trade? Win all day, everyday. He's good as is, even without the bomb trap, factoring in this.

Also, this makes Human Cyrax a smudge more viable, since that damage opportunity with regular Cyrax is now gone...so players aren't necessarily killed for picking the alternate costume.

 

[nubi]

that doesn't make human cyrax better that makes both versions of him bad lol, if they remove the bomb trap they need to buff him in other places like making the first hit of 33 hit low

 

[Zebster]

Also, this makes Human Cyrax a smudge more viable, since that damage opportunity with regular Cyrax is now gone...so players aren't necessarily killed for picking the alternate costume.

Still not viable enough with the huge gap in where they are placed in the tier list AFTER the whole patch: Cyrax A/A+ to Human Cyrax C tier.

Also more bots showing up lately.

 

[cgerrr]

But it's easy to complain that the trap is all Cyrax has when it's ALL YOU USE. A character is only gimmicky when you develop your entire strategy around one gimmick. Cyrax has a stun, just like the other higher tier characters like Scorpion and Sub Zero--the net! Use it well.

I think about the trap being gone a little bit more, and I actually kinda like it. I still think it wasn't bad, and only the tech window needed to be fixed, but think about it like this...Cyrax is probably even scarier to trade projectiles with than even Sub. 51% w/ 1 bar of meter for a projectile trade? Win all day, everyday. He's good as is, even without the bomb trap, factoring in this.

Guys, you’re my heroes :nohomo:.
Aside from other unrelated things it’s literally what I’ve tried to convey with all my previous posts here, technical staff included (though you did it better). I.e. believe in NRS balancing ability, be positive about changes, examine those from different angles, see the clear unbiased picture and try to find an actual potential of the character when the blind fold of Bomb trap will be lifted.

However, while Cyrax is definitely capable, with some much dirt on top tiers I’m still vague on his tier placing after patch: A+ and in the same echelon as Ermac – hard to believe really (though it’s not like it’s Cyrax’s problem – it’s more like Top tiers are little to good). But, I didn’t see any dedicated high level player using Cyrax extensively either: time will tell it seems.

As for human Cyrax: how painfully slow his Bombs are. It really ruins his momentum greatly, giving breathers for opps, which in my opinion is the main reason for him being not that good as regular one. And if I remember correctly his net is slower too, which doesn’t help either (though I didn’t really feel the difference). His tele being faster is a neat feature, but it’s not Raiden’s tele quality and moreover, it’s not a cornerstone of Cyrax’s game to begin with.

_

 

[Sultani]

Well, I just take the fact that no dominant players or tournament winners were using Cyrax as evidence that the bomb trap isn't as overpowered as people say it is.

I agree with Nubi though, if it is in fact removed, they're going to have to buff him in other places. I'd suggested before that I'd like to see him be able to overhead more than once in a combo (like several other characters can) so that he would still have a meterless juggle that can deal some damage. Otherwise the meterless combos he'd still have would make him boring to play (purely subjective of course). He'd still be balanced because of his huge 50% combo that requires 1 meter bar, and because of his disablers and zoning ability. I think what makes him top tier right now is that there's characters that have big cmbos but no stuns / disablers, characters that have lower damaging combos but have stuns / disablers, characters that have low end combos but have great zoning... Right now Cyrax is a combination of the best of all three of those.

I still feel that balance is achieved without entirely removing the usefulness of an in place mechanic and re-working a character though. Without being able to set someone up for a bomb from a comand grab, I just don't see the reason to ever even use the commad grab at all.

Oh well, I guess easy fixes and less effort shouldn't be a concern. I mean hey, it's NRS' time, not mine.

 

[Jade101]

I think about the trap being gone a little bit more, and I actually kinda like it. I still think it wasn't bad, and only the tech window needed to be fixed, but think about it like this...Cyrax is probably even scarier to trade projectiles with than even Sub. 51% w/ 1 bar of meter for a projectile trade? Win all day, everyday. He's good as is, even without the bomb trap, factoring in this.

Also, this makes Human Cyrax a smudge more viable, since that damage opportunity with regular Cyrax is now gone...so players aren't necessarily killed for picking the alternate costume.

i hope he will still be good that bomb trap was alot of his game

 

[A Yellow Robot]

Can you guys compete without the Bomb Trap, because it's all that ever gets talked about and it's be becoming kinda depressing?

I rarely use the bomb trap and im ranked 64 with over 600 wins and and under 200 loses.

These are my two combo variations:

fk fk Net, sticky bomb, medium bomb, uppercut, *opponent bounces off bomb* uppercut

fk fk Net, sticky bomb, medium bomb, uppercut, *opponent bounces off bomb* back+bp, fp bp fp

or once my net lands anywhere on the screen i'll go right into the sticky bomb, etc.