Strategy Bad Matchups - Making them winnable

[NRF CharlieMurphy]

Here it is. This is what we need to be discussing. What are the ways to make the bad match ups .... Kabal, Kitana, Cyrax, Freddy, Kung Lao, Mileena and Shang Tsung (My opinion.... nothing more or less) winnable.

I am not going to turn down any input as long as it has been tested... and heck, anything that is put up here I will test myself as will i'm sure all of the Sub players. I think we all get caught up arguing over the wrong things, when in fact we need to find ways around these match ups.
First, we all need to agree... that Kung Lao is unwinnable. A good Kung Lao will know how to jail Sub Zero with his teleport instant 3 or delayed 3 which basically locks him down and makes him a sitting duck. He is the one character that I will switch to another to compete. My answer is Johnny Cage... just because of the small hit box and because against Kung Lao he plays the passive aggressor.

Lets get this started no?

 

[NRF CharlieMurphy]

Reserved for stuff

 

[xenogorgeous]

I have some questions : why Mileena telekick overcome Subby Ice Clone, when Subby does the move before Mileena does her tele kick ?

Sub Ice Puddle, can make some effect in Mileena Ball Roll wakeup ?

 

[Jim]

I have some questions : why Mileena telekick overcome Subby Ice Clone, when Subby does the move before Mileena does her tele kick ?

Sub Ice Puddle, can make some effect in Mileena Ball Roll wakeup ?

Can't say that I can tell you why but I can tell you that it happens with any dive kick. Kung Lao can be hard to trap with the clone because you do it as soon as he jumps towards you but unlike other characters he kicks through it and hits you. Basically it seems to be by design that Sub-Zero can't just completely shut down dive kicks with the clone. As for the ice puddle, no it won't help on ball or anything else. As far as I'm concerned the only time you should ever see an ice puddle is if you do it by accident.

Keeping to the topic of winning bad matchups for Mileena I can tell you plenty not to do. I may let others fill in more on what to do. Don't ice clone waiting for a roll/telekick. If she reads it she can punish it with telekick every time. You don't recover fast enough from the clone. That said you will sometimes land a clone from roll, punish this with a half charged b2. This stands the person into stagger state and you can start a pressure string right away.

If you are fighting a Mileena that is doing sais constantly do not dash to get in. Walk and duck (don't block) dashing has frames to recover and a slight change in the pace of the sais will hit you. The blocked projectile provides 4x as much meter to the opponent as a missed one, plus it takes chip damage.

Keep an eye on the low kicks to overhead kick. If you get hit by 3 d3s chances are an up4 is about to rain on your head, so try to react to that and block low then high.

 

[Lord Beef]

I have some questions : why Mileena telekick overcome Subby Ice Clone, when Subby does the move before Mileena does her tele kick ?

Sub Ice Puddle, can make some effect in Mileena Ball Roll wakeup ?

The naked clones hit box is lower than yours and the kick hits you in recovery, I assume youre cloning after you knock her down. Don't do that. if your chillin behind one and she telekicks(not ex), block and 22. It will knock her into the clone, where you can (b1) 2, 212 slide.
Edit - sorry jim, I didn't refresh before I posted and pretty much regurgitated what you said in part. Sorry bro °_°
Sent from Somewhere to Somewhere Else

 

[xenogorgeous]

thank for the ansewers, guys ..... Mileena, indeed, is a hard time for Sub, hehe

 

[Playpal]

I don't play SZ anymore, but I don't consider Kung Lao to be that bad of a match up. He has great mobility but ice clone limits that mobility. You should always be blocking low and punish all teleports. Teleport 3 does not jail SZ, it's neutral on block. Low hat is no longer a problem for SZ since it's punishable with 22 and on hit it's only +2. Clone really helps because Kung Lao cannot dive kick or F3 to close space and he's stuck on either zoning or teleporting, both of which are risky against SZ. Kung Lao's probably gonna spin every time you do a 21, so you gotta make him respect the string by doing 214. 224 clone won't work if he's crouch blocking. Kung Lao in general is just hard to rush down, but by forcing mistakes (which SZ excels at), kung lao is not that bad a match up. Xray is punishable with SZ according to somberness but I haven't tested. What I like to do after knocking Kung Lao down is do a neutral jump. If he teles, I njp. If he spins, I dash in 22. If he ex spins, i'll get hit but most of the time I won't get launched and I'll lose minimal health.

 

[NRF CharlieMurphy]

I don't play SZ anymore, but I don't consider Kung Lao to be that bad of a match up. He has great mobility but ice clone limits that mobility. You should always be blocking low and punish all teleports. Teleport 3 does not jail SZ, it's neutral on block. Low hat is no longer a problem for SZ since it's punishable with 22 and on hit it's only +2. Clone really helps because Kung Lao cannot dive kick or F3 to close space and he's stuck on either zoning or teleporting, both of which are risky against SZ. Kung Lao's probably gonna spin every time you do a 21, so you gotta make him respect the string by doing 214. 224 clone won't work if he's crouch blocking. Kung Lao in general is just hard to rush down, but by forcing mistakes (which SZ excels at), kung lao is not that bad a match up. Xray is punishable with SZ according to somberness but I haven't tested. What I like to do after knocking Kung Lao down is do a neutral jump. If he teles, I njp. If he spins, I dash in 22. If he ex spins, i'll get hit but most of the time I won't get launched and I'll lose minimal health.

Kung Lao can jail SZ with teleport 3. Tom and PL proved it on his stream and talked about it on numerous occasions. There is NOTHING SZ can do about it. This is a 0-10 online and probably like 2-8 offline. There is no debate.

 

[Playpal]

Kung Lao can jail SZ with teleport 3. Tom and PL proved it on his stream and talked about it on numerous occasions. There is NOTHING SZ can do about it. This is a 0-10 online and probably like 2-8 offline. There is no debate.

Ok.

 

[NeckolasBone]

yeah KL has 10-0 on sub all day,no doubt about it,puts you in teleport jail and you can do nothing but eat 28 to 38 percent all day.

 

[Playpal]

Tested it and I take it back, teleport 3 jails but only into standing 2. I don't see the importance of being jailed into high block though.

 

[NRF CharlieMurphy]

Tested it and I take it back, teleport 3 jails but only into standing 2. I don't see the importance of being jailed into high block though.

Sub can't do anything if he is jailed into standing block. Kung Lao can do any string and cancel into teleport 3 and sub has to eat it. There is a way that he can do it so that Sub is stuck in standing block. He also has no problem getting in on Sub basically free. Sub Zero is free to Kung Lao.

 

[Playpal]

"Jail into high block" made me think there was a difference between high block and low block. Either way, SZ should not be allowing KL to easily teleport. Like I said, always crouching blocking is important in this MU.

 

[OnizukaPM]

Maybe im wrong but NJP>Tele 3 & 22>Tele 3 & Uppercut>Tele 3?
dont have many experience against kunglaos, but for me it seems like his tele is punishable

 

[SunnyD]

Im having a really hard time with Noob Saibot. Any tips that can help me out? Fullscreen im pretty much screwed, Ex Slide gets blocked and punished, Ex Ice Ball gets interrupted with the relentless stream of shadow tackles. I cant see a way around it with Sub unless i counter pick.

 

[Bidu]

Im having a really hard time with Noob Saibot. Any tips that can help me out? Fullscreen im pretty much screwed, Ex Slide gets blocked and punished, Ex Ice Ball gets interrupted with the relentless stream of shadow tackles. I cant see a way around it with Sub unless i counter pick.

Try to get close even walk blocking or dash blocking. Full screen you're going no where. When you get at least a little bit off the full screen distance there when your mindgame comes to play. Try to trade his shadows with some Ice Blasts. If he uses the Shadow Slide, it's easy punishable by a full kombo if you manage to predict it and jump. When you finally be at close distance and knock him down don't even try to continue with pressure because his wake up is one of the best in the game. You could back dash and slide or Ice Blast or even jumping after his wake up. I hope I've helped.

 

[SunnyD]

I played a Noob Saibot earlier today and i massacred him with Subby simply by blocking most of his wake-ups and punishing. On the next fight however, he managed to keep me away the whole two rounds. That pushback on Shadow Tackle always keeps me from gaining any considerable ground. Thats the one issue, the pushback never lets me get anywhere near close.

 

[NRF CharlieMurphy]

"Jail into high block" made me think there was a difference between high block and low block. Either way, SZ should not be allowing KL to easily teleport. Like I said, always crouching blocking is important in this MU.

Sub has a larger crouching hit box... so KL's strings hit him while blocking as well. You don't have to believe me... but this match is not winnable when played at a high level because of this. You may take a match, but the relentless pressure KL can keep on Sub is too much. He builds meter too fast, and gets a ton of chip damage for free.

Noob is a game of reads. You need to figure out at what distance he tends to up knee at. Then just get there and throw an ice ball. if he gets you at full screen just high dash block in... you are at advantage if the slide hits you... which means basically you eat 7% but you gain ground. Once you get him cornered... just keep pressuring him into silly mistakes. You don't always have to try and beat quickly... let him make mistakes. Noob isn't a bad matchup however.

 

[Srryimwhte]

dont know if you have tried this but if you can bait the tele kick and roll you can punish while shes still in the air with b+1,2 2,1,4 slide/xray it works for and any one with the back flip recoil as well though i know most players will 2,2 freeze scorp and others give the chance off a blocked tele

 

[ChuckFiasco]

I have a hell of a time with good Sindel players while using SZ. I usually have to counter pick to give them a run for their money. But then again I suck.

 

[Creepy00]

I played a Noob Saibot earlier today and i massacred him with Subby simply by blocking most of his wake-ups and punishing. On the next fight however, he managed to keep me away the whole two rounds. That pushback on Shadow Tackle always keeps me from gaining any considerable ground. Thats the one issue, the pushback never lets me get anywhere near close.

Try trading win noob, then do b212 into your pressure game. Try not to jump as much as some noob players expected it with a upknee kick. While they do wake up attacks, any kind of it, throw an iceball. it will always get them. Keep doing this until they respect your iceball on wake up.

 

[NRF CharlieMurphy]

I have a hell of a time with good Sindel players while using SZ. I usually have to counter pick to give them a run for their money. But then again I suck.

Only clone in the corner. Accept the fact that... you will get hit by a scream or two. The goal here is to get Sindel to the corner. She will make it easy by trying to stay full screen. There are a few strings that she has that are deadly... but the thing you have to look for is the flip kick and exflip kick. She HAS to block after this move. Her follow up strings are all slower than Sub Zero's standing 2. So block the kick, and follow with either 2,1 or 2,2.
As for the screams... I jump the low screams and just walk block the others. I walk because it is easier to A) block B) some Sindel's will try to "trick" you and jump in rather than stay away... and if you are walking, you can just step back and clone or 2,2 AA.

 

[WinterWolf94]

i need help against kitana, i played one last night and i just couldnt get in, any tips?

 

[Metalic]

i need help against kitana, i played one last night and i just couldnt get in, any tips?

Kitana matchup is a lot like the Cage one. It's about the life lead and timer more than full out trying to kill them. You DUCK her fans, or dashblock if you feel like you'll get hit while going in. Once you get in, do a few pokes, blockstrings, etc. Just take the life lead, I can't stress enough how important the life lead is. If you get in and she squarewaves, you can (on reaction) input a "reverse" slide and punish her with it. Kitana is free to D4 on wakeup, so after a knockdown she either blocks or gets poked out of a move. Once you have a sizable life lead, you can control the match completely. If she fails to get you off of her, stay on her. But if you start to get pressured back, pop a clone and back up before you make a mistake or get chipped massively. Once distance is built, just duck and turtle. She'll be FORCED to come to you to win, and that's where SZ wants her. D4 is your friend up close. However Kitana -does- have a 100% safe string that does ~10% chip, so watch that life meter carefully. Clone has limited use in this matchup, but don't make the mistake of underusing it. Ice trades with fans decently as you get a free slide at least, but the real damage/advantage from trades comes from the untechable knockdown off a slide and follow-up pressure.

Hope I helped some, I'm not too amazing with explaining through text.

 

[rev0lver]

Ice trades with fans decently as you get a free slide at least, but the real damage/advantage from trades comes from the untechable knockdown off a slide and follow-up pressure.

Ice ball will not trade with instant air fans. That's the whole reason this MU is a problem.