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General/Other - Reptile Reptile Bottom 5

Bottom 5 Yeees?

  • Yes

    Votes: 135 39.0%
  • NO

    Votes: 211 61.0%

  • Total voters
    346

STB Sgt Reed

Online Warrior
Fix his normals and do something with DB4. In its current state, pounce is borderline useless beyond a last ditch yolo overhead.

Improve his meter building, somehow? If you're gonna make a character so meter dependent, he needs a more consistent way to build it. His specials are all unsafe, no one decent is spamming slides for meter outside of a basilisk confirm, or dashes for oki crossovers. Forceballs are too dangerous 99% of the time, pounce is silly. Where is the meter supposed to come from? Spit spam?
Don't forget... can't really get any meter from doing blockstrings on opponents either...
 
Registered to reply:

The issue with reptile is that it seems some of his stuff doesn't work as intended. Claw pounce is poor anti-air and often jumps over an opponent, has huge penalty for missing. Non-enhanced claw swipe is just dumb, it's just a bad attack that you do by accident when you want to go from ducking to B2. He lacks an overhead starter and B3, 4 is his only legit mix-up, so you can pretty much always block low then transition to high. His range/hitboxes are poor (oh you're jumping? Let me just uppercut you... nevermind), which would be fine if his other tools made up for it, but his other tools are so balanced in risk/reward that they don't. His force balls are sooo slow that characters can be slow to react and STILL punish them.

I also agree that his variations do not seem fully fleshed out. The delay to go to full stealth without meter is much too long and seems arbitrary. It should really be about the same time as normal stealth is now, with you getting semi-stealth if you attempt to abort early and full stealth if you hold for an additional ~15 frames. Most half-decent players do not struggle getting a poke or ranged weapon on you, and it would still be initially unarmored. The free hit that invis gives you doesn't seem significant most of the time.

Examples of broken situations:
1. Grandmaster sub can waltz out from behind his hidey hole and slide into you when he sees you start a force ball at full screen. Anywhere closer and he can just ex slide into you then do a full combo when you land into the ice clone.
2. Bojutsu kung jin is just a stupid match up thanks to his heat-seeking kick. I did a dash from one side of jin to the other and his kick changed direction, which then lead into a 45% combo. Real fair there, and the direction change looked as stupid as it sounds. The kick should never transition into a combo, and should have angle limits, but that's a problem with kung jin and not reptile. Throw in the massive overhead and 7 frame poke and I don't understand what they were thinking here.

I don't think speeding up the force ball frames would be fair because some characters already struggle against effective reptile zoning.

Here's my thoughts:

1. Change claw swipe to overhead. It's the only thing that makes sense. I would say get rid of it otherwise because in its current state, if your opponent is blocking low / footsy and you are too, then you just do this by accident when you attempt to do the overhead B2.
2. Instead of 3 versions of claw pounce, just make DB4 the close range and DF4 the long range. If this causes too much issue with the F412 combo then I'd prefer DB4 being close range and DB4, F to be long range.
3. Claw pounce should damage air opponents sooner so that it doesn't lose versus a jump kicking opponent 80% of the time.
4. Bring back acid hand as a way of canceling a force ball. I.E. if you do a force ball you can follow up with like DB1 to cancel it and instead do an acid hand (overhead) or something. This would give you a way to panic out of a force ball or bait with the force ball instead of always having your pants down when you do a forceball.
5. EX dash should have initial armor.
 

llabslb

R1D1_998
That's good man you need those other characters stick to them, because Reptile is just trash tier. Just wait for mk9 fb's and dash to come back I'm sure he'll be better then. Let's make that claw an overhead and give him more damage then he'll be solid.

In case you were wondering that was indeed sarcasm. Just look at his tool set. The character has everything he could possibly need to win, and he uses all those tools well in different ways in various situations. As far as neutral goes he is among the best characters in the game, his zoning us better than most characters in this game, and he has enough offensive presence to force people to respect him enough to have to eat pressure. He can do just about anything. The only thing I really see him struggle with is getting out of solid pressure, he still has the tools they are just harder to use as most times his best option is armor. His meter building is the only other problem I can really see, it's really slow for a character who relies so heavily on it. Aside from those two things there should be no complaints from anyone in any facet of his game. He plays up to par with pretty much all the cast, and all the MU'S he does lose he doesn't lose them by much. Btw, losing a mu to a character doesn't mean that character is better, it's just a bad mu. Beating a character and being a better are two completely different things. That's not necessarily directed at you I have just seen that concept get mixed up more than a few times in this thread.

If you want at least 5 characters rep is better than here:

Kitana
Kano
Ferra Torr
Kotal
Mileena
Jason
Goro
Cassie Cage
Kung Lao
Kenshi
Jacqui
Shinnok

Feel free to pick 5 out of that list because imo reptile is better than all of them. I didn't even post up the characters who I personally think reptile is better than I probably a lot of others dont. I think you'll all start to come around and see once this game is fully fleshed out.
So Reptile is better than Lao? Guess there really is no point arguing in this thread and it's funny how you put your girl Jacqui in that list as well.
 
Last edited by a moderator:

qspec

Noob
Registered to reply:

The issue with reptile is that it seems some of his stuff doesn't work as intended. Claw pounce is poor anti-air and often jumps over an opponent, has huge penalty for missing. Non-enhanced claw swipe is just dumb, it's just a bad attack that you do by accident when you want to go from ducking to B2. He lacks an overhead starter and B3, 4 is his only legit mix-up, so you can pretty much always block low then transition to high. His range/hitboxes are poor (oh you're jumping? Let me just uppercut you... nevermind), which would be fine if his other tools made up for it, but his other tools are so balanced in risk/reward that they don't. His force balls are sooo slow that characters can be slow to react and STILL punish them.

I also agree that his variations do not seem fully fleshed out. The delay to go to full stealth without meter is much too long and seems arbitrary. It should really be about the same time as normal stealth is now, with you getting semi-stealth if you attempt to abort early and full stealth if you hold for an additional ~15 frames. Most half-decent players do not struggle getting a poke or ranged weapon on you, and it would still be initially unarmored. The free hit that invis gives you doesn't seem significant most of the time.

Examples of broken situations:
1. Grandmaster sub can waltz out from behind his hidey hole and slide into you when he sees you start a force ball at full screen. Anywhere closer and he can just ex slide into you then do a full combo when you land into the ice clone.
2. Bojutsu kung jin is just a stupid match up thanks to his heat-seeking kick. I did a dash from one side of jin to the other and his kick changed direction, which then lead into a 45% combo. Real fair there, and the direction change looked as stupid as it sounds. The kick should never transition into a combo, and should have angle limits, but that's a problem with kung jin and not reptile. Throw in the massive overhead and 7 frame poke and I don't understand what they were thinking here.

I don't think speeding up the force ball frames would be fair because some characters already struggle against effective reptile zoning.

Here's my thoughts:

1. Change claw swipe to overhead. It's the only thing that makes sense. I would say get rid of it otherwise because in its current state, if your opponent is blocking low / footsy and you are too, then you just do this by accident when you attempt to do the overhead B2.
2. Instead of 3 versions of claw pounce, just make DB4 the close range and DF4 the long range. If this causes too much issue with the F412 combo then I'd prefer DB4 being close range and DB4, F to be long range.
3. Claw pounce should damage air opponents sooner so that it doesn't lose versus a jump kicking opponent 80% of the time.
4. Bring back acid hand as a way of canceling a force ball. I.E. if you do a force ball you can follow up with like DB1 to cancel it and instead do an acid hand (overhead) or something. This would give you a way to panic out of a force ball or bait with the force ball instead of always having your pants down when you do a forceball.
5. EX dash should have initial armor.
I think his tools are simply situational. You can use pounce to jump over a projectile and hit from almost full screen. EX it and you now have a full screen combo starter.

Also, isn't B2 his overhead starter? What do you mean he lacks one? From one of the fastest overheads in the game Reptile gets ~20% into HKD and Oki or ~30% for 1 bar.

If your forceballs are being punished, you're simply doing them at the wrong time. They are to be used near full screen unpredictably and occasionally after HKD. Feel free to disagree with me, but I've seen much better players than you or I use them to good effect... but like everything else, they are situational.

If anything, I look to Reptile as good design in this game. The ~50% off of almost any hit, dead if you get stuck in a corner, mix-ups for days is the problem. We should look to normalize the top tier instead of buffing characters with decent design and meaningful strengths and weaknesses. Shit like the bullshit OS artificially letting characters like Raiden get away with frame murder are more a problem than Reptile's relative strength to the median.

A concession I'll gladly make to the "Reptile is trash" crowd is that his variations are fairly uninspired with deceptive seemingly getting the shortest end of that particular stick. I remember watching his reveal before the game was launched and thinking "He only gets invisibility... really?".

I also get annoyed that my HKD off of F211+3 doesn't give me enough time to fully get my noxious buff. If a fast reversal is used, you'll get hit out which is dumb though it is surmountable (I use b34 to chew through most armored reversals to force them to block after HKD).
 

JDM

Noob
I think his tools are simply situational. You can use pounce to jump over a projectile and hit from almost full screen. EX it and you now have a full screen combo starter.

Also, isn't B2 his overhead starter? What do you mean he lacks one? From one of the fastest overheads in the game Reptile gets ~20% into HKD and Oki or ~30% for 1 bar.

If your forceballs are being punished, you're simply doing them at the wrong time. They are to be used near full screen unpredictably and occasionally after HKD. Feel free to disagree with me, but I've seen much better players than you or I use them to good effect... but like everything else, they are situational.

If anything, I look to Reptile as good design in this game. The ~50% off of almost any hit, dead if you get stuck in a corner, mix-ups for days is the problem. We should look to normalize the top tier instead of buffing characters with decent design and meaningful strengths and weaknesses. Shit like the bullshit OS artificially letting characters like Raiden get away with frame murder are more a problem than Reptile's relative strength to the median.

A concession I'll gladly make to the "Reptile is trash" crowd is that his variations are fairly uninspired with deceptive seemingly getting the shortest end of that particular stick. I remember watching his reveal before the game was launched and thinking "He only gets invisibility... really?".

I also get annoyed that my HKD off of F211+3 doesn't give me enough time to fully get my noxious buff. If a fast reversal is used, you'll get hit out which is dumb though it is surmountable (I use b34 to chew through most armored reversals to force them to block after HKD).
Do we play the same character? His Claw Pounce is trash and you have to preemptively do it ninety percent of the time because of how slow it is. It's not reaction based the frame data is just garbage. Our forceballs are being punished because we do them at the wrong time.... which is... all the time? Practically? The move is so slow you can barely ever safely get one out against a competent opponent. Reptile's design is not good for a lot of the reasons already stated.

-Klaw is terrible outside of combos.
-No Safe Specials to build meter
-Very meter reliant
-Pounce is trash
-All Variations suck without meter, practically unusable besides Noxious' against decent opponents (What were they thinking honestly with some of this frame data for his variations??)
 

esc1

95% of TYM discussion: "It's fine"
Fix his normals and do something with DB4. In its current state, pounce is borderline useless beyond a last ditch yolo overhead.

Improve his meter building, somehow? If you're gonna make a character so meter dependent, he needs a more consistent way to build it. His specials are all unsafe, no one decent is spamming slides for meter outside of a basilisk confirm, or dashes for oki crossovers. Forceballs are too dangerous 99% of the time, pounce is silly. Where is the meter supposed to come from? Spit spam?
I use pounce a lot to punish ice ball.. just wish I could do it at full screen. It requires about one dash in even with the far version. Bigger issue is slide can come out if you aren't strict on the input.
 

Zaccel

Noob
-Klaw is terrible outside of combos.
-No Safe Specials to build meter
-Very meter reliant
-Pounce is trash
-All Variations suck without meter, practically unusable besides Noxious' against decent opponents (What were they thinking honestly with some of this frame data for his variations??)
Pounce is indeed awful, but the EX version works okay against zoning (disadvantage enough to complete War and Peace notwithstanding). Just another move that requires the precious butter.

A safe Klaw and faster FB recovery (maybe no whiff recovery on ED?) would lead to stronger meter building in general--which would, ideally, cover issues with his variations without needing drastic alteration.
 
What I mean is there isn't a dial-a-combo that starts with an overhead. I'm only aware of the 15% meterless combo you get with the overhead, or in the corner you can do B2, B3,4 for 18%. There's a way to stretch that out but it's a lot of work compared to what other characters get with their eyes closed and honestly I'm not sure its worth spending meter on. You have to be good with reacting when you realize your opponent didn't block it as well. If you mess up you get a measly 3% damage.

The issue with B2 is its short range. It's really only practical when your opponent is knocked down and your on top of them. I've tried using it with invisibility and a lot of opponents will hit you with a poke or something if you try to close the gap. I think they envision B2 for knock down and claw pounce for longer ranges, but claw pounce has way too much risk and is too reactable, especially when the game goes slow-mo online.
 

Cossner

King of the Jobbers 2015
Administrator
Pounce is indeed awful, but the EX version works okay against zoning (disadvantage enough to complete War and Peace notwithstanding). Just another move that requires the precious butter.

A safe Klaw and faster FB recovery (maybe no whiff recovery on ED?) would lead to stronger meter building in general--which would, ideally, cover issues with his variations without needing drastic alteration.
I use pounce a lot to punish ice ball.. just wish I could do it at full screen. It requires about one dash in even with the far version. Bigger issue is slide can come out if you aren't strict on the input.
Why would you use the hella unreliable pounce instead of a slide?
 

Cossner

King of the Jobbers 2015
Administrator
What I mean is there isn't a dial-a-combo that starts with an overhead. I'm only aware of the 15% meterless combo you get with the overhead, or in the corner you can do B2, B3,4 for 18%. There's a way to stretch that out but it's a lot of work compared to what other characters get with their eyes closed and honestly I'm not sure its worth spending meter on. You have to be good with reacting when you realize your opponent didn't block it as well. If you mess up you get a measly 3% damage.

The issue with B2 is its short range. It's really only practical when your opponent is knocked down and your on top of them. I've tried using it with invisibility and a lot of opponents will hit you with a poke or something if you try to close the gap. I think they envision B2 for knock down and claw pounce for longer ranges, but claw pounce has way too much risk and is too reactable, especially when the game goes slow-mo online.
Dude I think you should explore the character more. B2 to b34? Why not 21 21 f412 slide or f41 f412 ex swipe f412 slide where you get way more damage? Also, execution is not hard at all. Your other post, while you said a bunch of true things, half of it was nonsensical.
 

Method

Full Combo Punishable
Yup. B2 run cancel whatever will net you at least 20% meterless mid screen with minimal effort. Not amazing, but better than 15% ...
 

feedyourcatbro

Meow Lin
I'd give my left nut to increase the slide hitbox ever so slightly upwards so it juggles more reliably. And maybe a 8-9f standing 1.
 

esc1

95% of TYM discussion: "It's fine"
Why would you use the hella unreliable pounce instead of a slide?
EX pounce and D2 or combo deals better damage. Will condition someone to not try and zone you really fast. If they are crouch blocking FB then they pay as well. Outside of a final hit I never use EX slide..
 
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mamasau

Noob
Without looking around but only inside reptile, I'm not a big fan of having ex klaw overhead but the main problem is his meter addiction without a reliable way to build.
You need a setup for both forceball and dd3, using them outside it's literally a gamble, but I'm partially ok with this because of nimble.
Klaw pounce seems to me redundant, maybe the fact hitting overhead can be the cause of having klaw mid but I don't find an usage beside the far one.
...and the forceball, it really needs an attention.

Summarize my priorities:
1 meter
2 forceball
3 other
 

Gesture Required Ahead

Get on that hook
That's entirely why I suggested make the duration 1/2 as long as EX.
He would just net the same damage in half the time. The damage boost he'd get in EX normally he'll get it in regular, there would be no point in using the meter for EX when you can just keep repeating Poison Gas ender. Also 18% throws for days Sun God Kotal would be mad jealous
 

Method

Full Combo Punishable
For me, it's:

1. Fix normals (improve specific frame data)
2. Tweak meter building potential
3. Everything else
 

Gesture Required Ahead

Get on that hook
Well, when rest of the roster gets second looks and thirds and your main does not it's going to raise some concerns. Hell, when Reptile was revealed a lot of people thought he wasn't even done, yet nothing has really changed..
Idk where this is coming from. Who though Reptile wasn't done? And a lot has changed according to people who played him pre-release. But that's irrelevant.