Beliefs, Non-Beliefs, Worldviews and Philosophy v2.0

[Under_The_Mayo]

if you are asking about my personal belief, then yes, I do. like billions before me. I cant remember the last person I met that still prayed to zeus.....

Oh, if it's numbers that determine the likelihood of a belief being legitimate, you must be seriously considering Islam, right?

@Under_The_Mayo you also have to consider jesus was viewed as a false prophet and enemy to pretty much everyone in power because of his preaching. so the people that may have been able to corroborate his existence likely brushed him off as another naysayer, while the rest feared the wrath of pilate, who certainly didn't want jesus legacy to be documented, let alone in a biblically accurate manner

This ignores the very real issue that no other "historical" events that happened in the story of Jesus are every mentioned. Even things that supposedly happened at the same time and don't have to do with him. Like Caeser Augustus's census requiring people to return to their hometown, which is the cause for Mary and Joseph going from Nazareth to Bethlehem. Or yeah, it's all a big conspiracy. Whatever you want.

 

[Zerg]

You need not reveal your faith, when you've already so clearly revealed your ignorance of biology.

What did I say that was ignorant?

 

[Zerg]

Have you ever considered that the morals we create are simply a means to an end, which is to help us survive? It is considered bad, wrong and not honorable to do many things because there are usually negative consequences to our actions. Do a bad thing like murder and the rest of society no longer trusts you and will want to either take revenge against you or confine you for their protection. Most religions further that thinking by promoting the idea that not only will you suffer for your bad actions while you live but also after you die.

Of course, we haven't even touched on the fact that what is bad, wrong and not honorable differs greatly between cultures and is highly dependent on various circumstances. Why is murder considered bad, yet we legally sanction it against other societies when we want to expand our territory or acquire more resources? You might want to be careful of using morality in your argument for intelligent design when it's pretty clear that morality is a human construct that flip-flops whenever it's convenient.

If I told you that you could rob a bank and you wouldn't get in trouble, that there wouldn't be any consequences. Wouldn't it still be bad? But why? Isn't it survival of the fittest? Even if there are no consequences, it's still bad, why? Because we're built that way.

 

[Zerg]

Last time I saw man I didn't see them walking on water. Or last time I saw man I didn't see them turn 5 loaves and three fishes into enough food to feed 5 thousand. Or last time I saw water I did to see it turned into wine. Or last time I saw females I didn't see them miraculously get pregnant without sex/purposeful fertilisation. Why are the Greek myths any more cookey than the Christian ones?


This was actually posted earlier in this thread; but a belief in a god or omnipotent being actually complicates things further. How do you explain this God? Who created this God? Would this god be considered atheist, since it doesn't believe in a creator? How has this god always existed? Why couldn't the matter just always exist? Why bring in a god to further complicate things?

It makes much more logical sense to just say matter has always existed; before time it was packed into an infinitesimally small space then the 'big bang' occurred creating the universe as we know it over billions and billions of years. Or, to just deny knowing about the beginning of matter. Just because science can't explain something immediately doesn't mean that "gawd did it,"

Our purpose in life is defined by us. Not by some devine creator. Our biological purpose is to reproduce, to ensure the survival of our species. This is the biological purpose of every species ever to exist. This is the 'purpose' of non-living viruses and prions. However, we have evolved beyond this rambling us to pursue other activities in life. The fact that we have transcended this is a testament to our evolutionary history, not to some fallicious creator.


If anything, believing in a god is illogical considering all the evidence out there against the existence of (a) god(s) (ineffectiveness of prayer, the demonstration of impossibility of events, the direct refutations of religious texts (including contradictions in the bible), the lack of historical accuracy of religious texts, the hypocrisy of religious leaders, modern morality contradicting religious doctrine, the differences in religious traditions of different nations/time periods, and the compete and utter lack of proof of any deity ever.

If you look at how everything is set-up, how everything coexists perfectly, how balanced everything is, it must point to an intelligent mind. For example, if I see a cellphone in the middle of the desert, I will say there must be a creator/manufacturer that made this. I won't say that it came together on it's own.

So saying that matter was always there and was compacted, then blew up and formed everything, is extremely unlikely. I remember watching a video where a mathematician explained what the odds are of a single protein being put together by chance. And the percent chance soooo small, that it would take trillions and trillions of years of random explosions to even get close to forming a single protein by chance. Now I want you to imagine what are the chances of our extremely complex earth to form from chance.

Again there is a lot more to this, and let me just provide you with some links to save me time. (I've got a tournament in about 2 hours)

http://www.existence-of-god.com/existence-of-god.html

 

[Under_The_Mayo]

What did I say that was ignorant?

Asking how seeds "know" what to do. And I didn't insult you by calling you ignorant. I said you are ignorant of biology. We're all ignorant of many things. I'm ignorant of quantum mechanics, japanese history, and plumbing. But I could learn about it if I wanted to. You are ignorant of biology, but running your mouth on the subject as if your ignorance is support for a supernatural belief system. It is not. If you want to know how life works, study it. There's plenty of literature on cellular evolution, chemical evolution, evolution by natural selection. You're not the first person to wonder why life works the way that it does. But many people have already been studying this field for centuries. So you don't have to come in saying "How can plants know what to do without a creator derrrrr?"

 

[Under_The_Mayo]

If you look at how everything is set-up, how everything coexists perfectly, how balanced everything is, it must point to an intelligent mind. For example, if I see a cellphone in the middle of the desert, I will say there must be a creator/manufacturer that made this. I won't say that it came together on it's own.

Things are not balanced! You call this co-existence? Nature is full of murder and constant struggle and suffering. 95% of our entire planet is inhospitable to life. And the vast majority of everything in the universe doesn't allow life of any kind. Our planet is riddled with disasters like earthquakes, tsunamis, floods, volcanos, famine, inequal distribution of natural resources. 1/5 women die from natural un-aided childbirth. We die from our dentition without help. The "intelligence" that you speak of is utterly incompetent for a designer.

And your cellphone example is the perfect display of your ignorance of biology. Read a book. I would recommend Jerry Coyne's "Why Evolution Is True".

 

[Juggs]

well that would support the belief that there is no higher power, that we, and everything we know came about by pure chance, from nothingness. unless athiests also believe some form of matter has always existed, but I don't think that is the case. btw, I don't have anything against atheists, both sides of the argument have flaws (atleast from a scientific perspective)

Like I've said before, there's no belief system with Atheism. An individual Atheist can believe one thing, while another can believe something completely different. The only thing all Atheists share is the lack in belief of a God or Gods.

That said, Atheists don't need anything to support their lack of belief, other than lack of evidence for the claim. We don't need to prove anything, we aren't the one's claiming a supernatural being created the Universe just for our tiny insignificant planet.

 

[The_REAL_xVAPORx]

There isn't really a winning side to this debate, Whether you believe the universe is the product of an almighty deity or came about by complete chance, the chances of either of those being the case is equally impossible. So personally I choose to believe there is more to life than just existing and dying, atheists prefer cold hard facts and conclusive evidence, which is understandable. Since this inevitably turns into historical nitpicking and subjective logic, I bow out gracefully. @Under_The_Mayo ggs to you sir

 

[Juggs]

Whether you believe the universe is the product of an almighty deity or came about by complete chance, the chances of either of those being the case is equally impossible.

Improbable, not impossibru!

 

[Pan1cMode]

If you look at how everything is set-up, how everything coexists perfectly, how balanced everything is, it must point to an intelligent mind. For example, if I see a cellphone in the middle of the desert, I will say there must be a creator/manufacturer that made this. I won't say that it came together on it's own.

So saying that matter was always there and was compacted, then blew up and formed everything, is extremely unlikely. I remember watching a video where a mathematician explained what the odds are of a single protein being put together by chance. And the percent chance soooo small, that it would take trillions and trillions of years of random explosions to even get close to forming a single protein by chance. Now I want you to imagine what are the chances of our extremely complex earth to form from chance.

Again there is a lot more to this, and let me just provide you with some links to save me time. (I've got a tournament in about 2 hours)

http://www.existence-of-god.com/existence-of-god.html

Who created the God then? How does adding a God make things less complicated? Doesn't someone more 'intelligent' than the God have to create it? Occam's razor disagrees with your sentiment.

Also, if you'd studied human anatomy you'd realise how stupid our internal systems are. Why do we have an appendix? Wisdom teeth? A blind spot at the exit of the ganglions at the back of the eye? Nipples on males? An overly long vas in males? If we were designed, our designer did a pretty piss poor job.

 

[Under_The_Mayo]

ggs to you sir

And ggs to you to sir.

 

[Peckapowa]

Who created the God then? How does adding a God make things less complicated? Doesn't someone more 'intelligent' than the God have to create it? Occam's razor disagrees with your sentiment.

Also, if you'd studied human anatomy you'd realise how stupid our internal systems are. Why do we have an appendix? Wisdom teeth? A blind spot at the exit of the ganglions at the back of the eye? Nipples on males? An overly long vas in males? If we were designed, our designer did a pretty piss poor job.

To be fair when you break our nature down to its core it is extremely complicated and interesting, some of the cellular mechanisms are wildly complex and mindblowing... most of these you mention are simply things that no longer have use and are remnants of previous adaptions to nature... also remember that god and evolution are not mutually exclusive. You are throwing out the 1 percent when in reality its insanely fascinating and mindblowing to think that these ridiculously complex molecular systems are a product of random selection and time.

 

[NoobHunter420]

The Lord of light is the one true god!!!!!

 

[Juggs]

You are throwing out the 1 percent when in reality its insanely fascinating and mindblowing to think that these ridiculously complex molecular systems are a product of random selection and time.

Reality is more crazy and fascinating than fiction, always.

 

[Zerg]

Asking how seeds "know" what to do. And I didn't insult you by calling you ignorant. I said you are ignorant of biology. We're all ignorant of many things. I'm ignorant of quantum mechanics, japanese history, and plumbing. But I could learn about it if I wanted to. You are ignorant of biology, but running your mouth on the subject as if your ignorance is support for a supernatural belief system. It is not. If you want to know how life works, study it. There's plenty of literature on cellular evolution, chemical evolution, evolution by natural selection. You're not the first person to wonder why life works the way that it does. But many people have already been studying this field for centuries. So you don't have to come in saying "How can plants know what to do without a creator derrrrr?"

Honestly, I shouldn't be wasting my time responding to you, you obviously have no idea what you're talking about. My question was, "how does each seed know to become a tree?" And I know how they become trees, everyone does. But how does it know to do what it does? How do cells know to multiple? How does our heart know to beat?

Let me give you another example: When a baby lion is born, it already knows how to hunt. Yes you can say it's instinct, but how come we're not born with it? How come each animal is born with certain instincts and traits? And those instincts and traits are specific to them. Lions aren't born thinking they can fly like birds, and chickens are born knowing how to hunt. Each animal is DESIGNED, which means there is a designer or a Creator.

Things are not balanced! You call this co-existence? Nature is full of murder and constant struggle and suffering. 95% of our entire planet is inhospitable to life. And the vast majority of everything in the universe doesn't allow life of any kind. Our planet is riddled with disasters like earthquakes, tsunamis, floods, volcanos, famine, inequal distribution of natural resources. 1/5 women die from natural un-aided childbirth. We die from our dentition without help. The "intelligence" that you speak of is utterly incompetent for a designer.

And your cellphone example is the perfect display of your ignorance of biology. Read a book. I would recommend Jerry Coyne's "Why Evolution Is True".

And everything IS balanced. Don't you know what the Food Chain is? Don't you know know what the Water Cycle is?

Yes floods, volcanoes and earthquakes all happen, but it doesn't take away from the Ecological Balance. The sun will continue to feed the grass, which will feed the chicken, which will feed the wolf. Some animals dying in an earthquake doesn't take away from the perfect system that is set into place.

I don't have the time to respond to close-minded people like you, I'm sorry. Maybe if I didn't have a job or school, I could sit and explain every little detail of life since you enjoy complicating and manipulating everything. So this will be my last response to this thread, hopefully.

And I would recommend Ray Comfort's "Nothing Created Everything".

And if don't wanna read a whole book, this website will do: http://www.existence-of-god.com/existence-of-god.html

 

[Zerg]

Who created the God then? How does adding a God make things less complicated? Doesn't someone more 'intelligent' than the God have to create it? Occam's razor disagrees with your sentiment.

Also, if you'd studied human anatomy you'd realise how stupid our internal systems are. Why do we have an appendix? Wisdom teeth? A blind spot at the exit of the ganglions at the back of the eye? Nipples on males? An overly long vas in males? If we were designed, our designer did a pretty piss poor job.

omg I can't continue responding to you people, are you seriously blind to EVERYTHING?!?!?

Our designer did a piss poor job designing us?!?!??! Are you for real? We are machines that are not plugged into any walls, if someone cuts us, we heal!!!! Do you know complicated it is for us to just have balance?

And nobody created God, he was always there, if something did create God, then something must of created that thing, which would be infinite regression, which is impossible. Anyway I'm done responding to this thread, I seriously don't have the time. I will refer you to this website, read it, read it all! http://www.existence-of-god.com/existence-of-god.html

 

[nwo]

@Zerg I don't need to click on your link to know that.

There's a 0% chance that we came from nothing, I say that to people and they think its too simple and closed minded, when in reality they are the ones thinking "god" means some guy in the clouds in a robe.

 

[Juggs]

Let me give you another example: When a baby lion is born, it already knows how to hunt. Yes you can say it's instinct, but how come we're not born with it? How come each animal is born with certain instincts and traits? And those instincts and traits are specific to them. Lions aren't born thinking they can fly like birds, and chickens are born knowing how to hunt. Each animal is DESIGNED, which means there is a designer or a Creator.

We are born with instincts, they just aren't as necessary. For instance, if you put a newborn in a pool, it will start trying to swim, without ever even knowing how or what it's doing. There's a lot of instincts humans are born with, and a lot we still use throughout our lives. Do some research, it's pretty cool actually.

Yes floods, volcanoes and earthquakes all happen, but it doesn't take away from the Ecological Balance. The sun will continue to feed the grass, which will feed the chicken, which will feed the wolf. Some animals dying in an earthquake doesn't take away from the perfect system that is set into place.

It's not perfect, but it's balanced because it has evolved that way, same with individual species. If Humans were created, the creator did a horrible job. There's no reason our testicles, a huge organ (giggity), should be on the outside of our body. Our most useful sense, sight, is used through our eyeballs, which are super sensitive and have almost no protection. I could go on and on, but you get the point.

And I would recommend Ray Comfort's "Nothing Created Everything".

And if don't wanna read a whole book, this website will do: http://www.existence-of-god.com/existence-of-god.html

Ray Comfort is a joke, sorry man. He once correlated Bananas as a result of a creator, and got made fun of forever, then finally used the "I was just trolling" option select.

 

[nwo]

We are born with instincts, they just aren't as necessary. For instance, if you put a newborn in a pool, it will start trying to swim, without ever even knowing how or what it's doing. There's a lot of instincts humans are born with, and a lot we still use throughout our lives. Do some research, it's pretty cool actually.

You had to use the old "throw an infant in a pool" example? You couldn't use the "suck a tit" example? LOL, atheists crack me up.

 

[Juggs]

You had to use the old "throw an infant in a pool" example? You couldn't use the "suck a tit" example? LOL, atheists crack me up.

I don't even understand your point. But a newborn swimming is a lot more impressive than it "sucking a tit". It's also funny that you phrased it "throw an infant in a pool". LOL, I'll generalize theists and say they crack me up too.

 

[nwo]

I don't even understand your point. But a newborn swimming is a lot more impressive than it "sucking a tit". It's also funny that you phrased it "throw an infant in a pool". LOL, I'll generalize theists and say they crack me up too.

The point is, if you put a newborn in a pool its not going to swim its going to drown.

 

[Zoidberg747]

Ray Comfort is a joke, sorry man. He once correlated Bananas as a result of a creator, and got made fun of forever, then finally used the "I was just trolling" option select.

http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/authors/r/ray_comfort.html

Im laughing so hard right now.

 

[Juggs]

The point is, if you put a newborn in a pool its not going to swim its going to drown.

No one is advocating throwing infants in pools and expecting them to swim. But they have the natural instinct to be able to, with supervision of course.

 

[Pan1cMode]

To be fair when you break our nature down to its core it is extremely complicated and interesting, some of the cellular mechanisms are wildly complex and mindblowing... most of these you mention are simply things that no longer have use and are remnants of previous adaptions to nature... also remember that god and evolution are not mutually exclusive. You are throwing out the 1 percent when in reality its insanely fascinating and mindblowing to think that these ridiculously complex molecular systems are a product of random selection and time.

I'm not arguing that at all. I agree. I study this (human anatomy) right now in my degree.

There are perfectly good explanations as to why those things are; they're just derived from looking at our evolutionary history. For people to say we were intelligently designed shows a startling lack of knowledge about our bodily systems. If we were intelligently designed and didn't simply just evolve, the designer did a really horrible job.

omg I can't continue responding to you people, are you seriously blind to EVERYTHING?!?!?

Our designer did a piss poor job designing us?!?!??! Are you for real? We are machines that are not plugged into any walls, if someone cuts us, we heal!!!! Do you know complicated it is for us to just have balance?

And nobody created God, he was always there, if something did create God, then something must of created that thing, which would be infinite regression, which is impossible. Anyway I'm done responding to this thread, I seriously don't have the time. I will refer you to this website, read it, read it all! http://www.existence-of-god.com/existence-of-god.html

I probably understand balance and locomotion much better than you do to be quite honest.

So God is all powerful, but he designs us with wisdom teeth that crowd, appendix that serve no purpose other than to get infected, suboptimal eye sight and a reproductive system that is dangerously prone to infection and injury and is also shared with our waste removal pathway. Sounds about right.

If you accept intelligent design you must accept that your god is imperfect and makes mistakes.


So matter can't just always exist but a God can... do you understand the hypocrisy in that statement? Adding a god just complicates things. It adds in something else that now must be explained.

 

[nwo]

No one is advocating throwing infants in pools and expecting them to swim. But they have the natural instinct to be able to, with supervision of course.

That kid was floating by itself, thank god. It still didn't look right.