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Match-up Discussion "Zorro Trampa" The Option select of D3 in Batgirl matchup.

SuppaSapien3

Chipotle and Olive Garden are NOT authentic
Since the forums as of late are dead as the fish after a BP spill, I though I might a well post a theory of something that I don't see Aquaman players do to often in tournaments, and I discovered in my time chamber. I don't have a clear video, and I'm not sure if it works entirely like I believe it to work, so I was wondering if anyone wants to stream, or post a video of what I am talking about, just post it in this thread. If this strategy was already discovered, well it wouldn't hurt to review would it?

AQUAMAN'S GREATEST OPTION SELECT

One of the major problems that Aquaman faces when playing Batgirl is the lack of keeping her contained both when she is on offense and on defense. But the main purpose of this thread is showing that ending Aquaman's main bnb combo into D3 when she is hit, forces fear into Batgirl from waking up with THESE WAKEUPS(bat-wheel, smokebomb, and flying bat) putting her into Aquaman's domination. The reason why I mention these three beacuse I believe these wakeups are the only ones with invincibility. THIS GUIDE IS NOT FOR ALL WAKEUPS, although for ideas see the end of the post. This sounds pretty good but, now I know you are asking me two questions. 1. How can I attempt to do this?, and 2. how can this tech work against all three of her best varying wake ups? I will now attempt to explain this theory.

1. How can I attempt to do this?
Now in order to test this in the lab yourself properly, it is imperative that you follow my instructions to the letter. First you have to do the standard Aquaman combo that begins with B12( B12 :xDB2:r B12:xMBDB2:r22:xDB1:rThen D3!) The timing is a little fuzzy for the D3, but more than possible. Then you want to immediately dash forward, and here comes the strange part, neutral jump up, and HOLD BACK! DO NOT press any normal, just hold back. The reason why you will have to follow the steps like this will be explained in the next section.
EDIT: See at bottom but basically if you think that Batgirl is on to this setup instead of neutral jumping and BLOCKING, you can J1,J2, or J3. use your judgement on what is good for the situation.

2. How can this tech work against all three of her best varying wake ups?
Bat-wheel
Now this move is one of the banes of my existence. Its a 50/50 guess, a anti-air, and armor killer all in one, while although unsafe, you have to look for the active window to punish, while guessing whether she will hit high or low. But it has a weakness. It is highly punishable on whiff (obviously), but more importantly Aquaman can get into a position where he can make it whiff and get a full punish for it. Hence the D3 knockdown combo. When Aquaman dashes up and jumps Batgirl whiffs batwheel and lag so much, he is still in range to get a punish with his B12. "But Suppa, Batgirl's not gonna mindlessly spam bat-wheel all the time, more than likely she is gonna use flying bat to hit you out of the jump." Cool story bro, lets look at why when using the exact same setup, flying bat wouldn't work either.

Flying Bat
Now if you are a Superman player, any character that depends on reversing a characters wakeups, or a corner control character, you know how annoying that this move can be. Not only is it 6 frames (making it one of the best YOLO moves to do in the game), on MB it leads directly to either a full combo, or Ares forbid, another reset opportunity. But the reason I mentioned the corner is because this move has a ridiculously stupid hitbox. Even if you manage to reverse this wakeup, or atempt to jump over it in the corner, you still have the propensity to get hit by it due to a disjointed hitbox that extends behind her. So when she is on the ground, and you think she will flying bat, just block and don't jump right? WRONG. The special thing about using this D3 setup is that Aquaman jumps in the one location where Batgirl CANNOT hit him, leading to of course a whiff punish, although what to pusnish with, is a bit timing specific. But going back to what was said earlier, this only works if Aquaman DOES NOT PRESS ANY BUTTONS when he neutral jumps. If he does, the flying bats stupidity hitbox will activate and will hit Aquaman, and make your expression look, well stupefied. "This all sounds really good Suppa, and I would almost deem this viable for me to steal use in a tournament setting, but we all know that if a Batgirl player would see what we would set up, all they have to do its smoke bomb when we jump and its all over for us. Plus you failed to mention why should we hold back when we neutral jump." Well this is explained in the final section.

Smoke-Bomb
I believe everything that was said about this move has already been said. Its one of the best teleports in the game, and with meter, can lead back into whatdoyouknow her vortex again. Any character that would dare claim the air as their territory, or who would try to zone her out, would have to face the reckoning of being assassinated from the clouds. So what can you do against this? This wakeup is the prime reasoning why you have to follow the instructions to the fullest. Messing it up can result with you getting hit with this wakeup, and possibility losing the match cause you know, its Batgirl. First of all when you do the D3, your timing for everything has to be immaculate. You have to dash, as soon as the game allows you, and neutral jump as soon as you finish the dash. "But Suppa now you are in the air and the wakeup is sure to hit..." Hush now just let me finish. If you have managed to do the dash and neutral jump fast enough, Aquaman will have enough time to hit the ground before Batgirls wakeup fully comes out. "But Suppa..." Ahem, which leads straight to why I told you to block back in jump in the first place. Aquaman will fully block her teleport and allow Aquaman to go straight for, not a whiff punish, but a block punish. If you are already starting to see, regardless of the three wakeups mentioned, holding back just ensures that this is a option select for smoke bomb, and doesn't really inhibit your ability to punish her in the other two wakeups.

In summary, by ending Aquaman's standard combo in D3, Aquaman ensures that Batgirl has to think twice about using any of her wakeups that begins with invincibility frames. This forces Batgirl to either stay still and do nothing, or use some of her riskier wakeups to establish dominance both which puts Aquaman in a pretty good situation. Once again please feel free to post videos for demonstration, and if you find a flaw with this setup or if I am entirely wrong please feel free to call me out. Lets show the world what happens when a bat tries to tuna fish...

(I tried the joke at least :confused:)
EDIT: One of the flaws of this setup is that Batgirl can simply choose to walk back then batwheel, smoke-bomb, flying bat, etc. but like I said this tech is simply a way of conditioning her off reads and guesses, and supplementing this with the way you already play, not as a end all combo. If you think Batgirl might do something like this, and not wakeup at all, simply mix her up with his 50/50, a b1, or b2 when she gets up INSTEAD of neutral jumping up. Or you can dash grab.

3. Countering the Counter(Counterception)
People have literally told me "But Suppa batgirl can just bat evade out, or do some other wakeup, or delay her moves." Well you just have to guess accordinly and use what is mentioned at the bottom then do you?

Since batgirl can just examine whether you have jumped to prepare for the setup accordingly, you can acually push J1,J2,J3 instead of just holding block making it a true guess. J1 flat out stops batgirl from even getting into the air with bat evade and neutral J3 forces her to block if nothing is done. Neutral J2 forces her to block if she back dashes. MOREL OF THE STORY: Its up to your guessing skills, and your ability to read the oppenent whether to block or not when you neutral jump.

IN SUMMARY: This setup boils down to exactly TWO OPTIONS YOU CAN DO UP TO THE NEUTRAL JUMP.

1. Guess that Batgirl is going to do a bat-wheel, a flying bat, or a smoke bomb on wakeup, and HOLD BACK when you neutral jump.
2. Guess that Batgirl WILL DO ANYTHING ELSE otherwise than wat is posted on 1. and cancel the neutral jump into either J1, or J3 to punish all other wakeups, OR force her to block if it is anything else.

LIST of wakeups. Tested as of 12/26/14
Bob's Bola: Stopped by neutral jumping then J3. Can be stopped by J1 if timed right.
Batarang: Stopped by neutral jumping then J1 or J3
Flying Bat: Stopped by neutral jumping holding back and whiff punishing
Batwheel: Stopped by neutral jumping holding back. Can be whiffed punished but timing is tight. If not whiffed punished she is forced to block.
Redemption: Avoided by neutral jumping, but batgirl, is forced to block
Bat-Evade: Stopped by neutral jumping then J1 or J2 before extension can come out
Smoke Bomb: Stopped by neutral jumping holding back and punishing on block. Has to done really fast or else Aquaman is hit.
Batgirl's only defense? MB B3: can be blocked if neutral jumped, but if you press a normal you will get hit.
Anything else discoverd by me not a wakeup: Avoided by neutral jumping, but batgirl, is forced to block if J1,J2, or J3 is used
 
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HoneyBee

Flash God Lord
It seems like everything is very specific (in terms of frames) for this to work. If batgirl simply changes the timing of her wakeup, this probably wouldn't work in all situations.
 

SuppaSapien3

Chipotle and Olive Garden are NOT authentic
It seems like everything is very specific (in terms of frames) for this to work. If batgirl simply changes the timing of her wakeup, this probably wouldn't work in all situations.
Even if batgirl manages to change timing of wakeup, with the exception of batwheel, aquaman still is in a advantageous position where he can block, and punish her if she does go that route. And Im testing it now but I believe since batgirl isnt waking up immediately, she has no starting frame invincibility, and should be hit out of her attempts. EDIT: It appears that she can hit you out if she waits since you are still in the air, but you can just counter by not going for the setup if you believe she is going to go that route. Honestly its completely a game of conditioning and reads.
 

Ram

You can't fight physics
Will this sort of strategy work with other characters ending certain combos in d3 (against Batgirl, I mean)?
 

SuppaSapien3

Chipotle and Olive Garden are NOT authentic
Will this sort of strategy work with other characters ending certain combos in d3 (against Batgirl, I mean)?
Sorry I only tested out Aquaman. If you find some other setups feel free to post in the picked character forum!
 

Youphemism

Gunslinger since pre patch (sh/out to The Farmer)
All BG has to do is wait a sec until the wakeup window is over and she can flying bat you for full combo...
 

SuppaSapien3

Chipotle and Olive Garden are NOT authentic
All BG has to do is wait a sec until the wakeup window is over and she can flying bat you for full combo...
Then I guess you have to use it off a intelligent read then. Read the last part I edited it. And thats actually the beauty of this. You stopped batgirl from waking up, making her have to change her strategy. By reading this you can punish accordingly. Thats why I love fighting games.
 

Youphemism

Gunslinger since pre patch (sh/out to The Farmer)
Then I guess you have to use it off a intelligent read then
Uh not really, to avoid anything that happens after the d3 all she has to do is get up and block. If she sees the jump then flying bat, otherwise just block. You just can't do anything to Batgirl on knockdown by the looks of it :DOGE
 

SuppaSapien3

Chipotle and Olive Garden are NOT authentic
Uh not really, to avoid anything that happens after the d3 all she has to do is get up and block. If she sees the jump then flying bat, otherwise just block. You just can't do anything to Batgirl on knockdown by the looks of it :DOGE
Lol. If you wanna take that route, you can always j2 when you jump. That way he is forced to take the jump 2 if she does nothing, and do with what you are gonna do therin
 

Youphemism

Gunslinger since pre patch (sh/out to The Farmer)
Lol. If you wanna take that route, you can always j2 when you jump. That way he is forced to take the jump 2 if she does nothing, and do with what you are gonna do therin
If you're neutral jumping then j2 is probably a horrible option. J1 or j3 is better for a neutral jump with Aquaman.
 

SuppaSapien3

Chipotle and Olive Garden are NOT authentic
Oh no! I have to change the timing of my Wake-up!
How so?????? D3 is a hard knockdown so you can't roll. If you use the move later it isnt a wakeup if you don't do it immediately, and is free to be hit by D2, D1, B2 or whatever Aquaman feels like.
 

SuppaSapien3

Chipotle and Olive Garden are NOT authentic
Can't Batgirl just bat-evade out of this
Once more yes she can, but the point that Im trying to make is that you made her do something else and question what it is she needs to do. Plus if you bat evade you could risk getting hit by a FTD, and since you are running away from Aquaman, thats more time for you not to get me in a vortex. Its not a end all be all its just a option to the many tools you already have. Sometimes the greastest blow to a person in a fight is not when a person gets hit, its from the illusion and the anticipation of when and where they are going to get hit. A blow to the mind is stronger than one to the face. :cool:
 

Youphemism

Gunslinger since pre patch (sh/out to The Farmer)
Once more yes she can, but the point that Im trying to make is that you made her do something else and question what it is she needs to do. Plus if you bat evade you could risk getting hit by a FTD, and since you are running away from Aquaman, thats more time for you not to get me in a vortex. Its not a end all be all its just a option to the many tools you already have. Sometimes the greastest blow to a person in a fight is not when a person gets hit, its from the illusion and the anticipation of when and where they are going to get hit. A blow to the mind is stronger than one to the face. :cool:
But bat evade 3 is another of her invincible options, and one that is used regularly.
 

SuppaSapien3

Chipotle and Olive Garden are NOT authentic
But bat evade 3 is another of her invincible options, and one that is used regularly.
I just went into practice again. It seems the main setup to do when Aquaman jumps is either to jump 1 or just block. Do you try using jump one on this wakeup?
 

Youphemism

Gunslinger since pre patch (sh/out to The Farmer)
I just went into practice again. It seems the main setup to do when Aquaman jumps is either to jump 1 or just block. Do you try using jump one on this wakeup?
But if you jump 1 you get hit by flying bat do you not? I'm not actually on right now I'm just letting you know what she can do from the top of my head lol
 

SuppaSapien3

Chipotle and Olive Garden are NOT authentic
But if you jump 1 you get hit by flying bat do you not? I'm not actually on right now I'm just letting you know what she can do from the top of my head lol
The whole point of the post was based off if she DOES wake-up immediately. Pushing the jump button is for the situation that you believe batgirl DOSN't wakeup. You just have to guess and read the situation accordingly. Its no different then deciding to wakeup dp on street fighter. You can do it to hit the opponent but you risk them blocking and getting punished. The one who reads the situation correctly is the winner.
 

Youphemism

Gunslinger since pre patch (sh/out to The Farmer)
The whole point of the post was based off if she DOES wake-up immediately. Pushing the jump button is for the situation that you believe batgirl DOSN't wakeup. You just have to guess and read the situation accordingly. Its no different then deciding to wakeup dp on street fighter. You can do it to hit the opponent but you risk them blocking and getting punished. The one who reads the situation correctly is the winner.
But you're treating it like there's a guess involved where there isn't. There's no mixup if she has an option that gets out of it every time.
 

SuppaSapien3

Chipotle and Olive Garden are NOT authentic
But you're treating it like there's a guess involved where there isn't. There's no mixup if she has an option that gets out of it every time.
I kinda don't get what you are saying though. For the option she has to get out of it, he has a option to still force her to block or hit her anyways. J1 flat out stops batgirl from even getting into the air with bat evade and neutral J3 forces her to block if nothing is done. Neutral J2 forces her to block if she back dashes. And if she wakeups and you guess a Neutral jump block she gets comboed. Could you elaborate?