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Question - Shinnok With the KP2 patch coming up, what buffs/nerfs should Shinnok receive

SaSSolino

Soul Stealing Loyalist
What changes would you make to Takeda or Jason? For Takeda I just purposely whiff his move since you can make it attack close, medium, and far. Jason I can only use it once it is almost the end of the round in order to close it out but other than that it is extremely risky to use in the middle of a match. I was thinking of having the stolen move be Pursuit for Jason, and Kunai for Takeda; thoughts?
Kunai sucks, why not ex fist flurry? Let's get a vortex bruh!
 

x-azeez

Bullet with your name on it
Well, I know some people are already saying that Shinnok is broken (Bone Shaper to be specific), but what adjustments would you guys like to see made to Shinnok as a whole? What adjustments would you guys like to see made to Necromancer, and/or Impostor, and/or Bone Shaper?

Edit: Here includes the changes I've seen suggested so far in the thread. I'll continue to update the changes as people have more suggestions.

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Universal:

· D4~Hell Sparks – No longer a true block string

· Standing 3 – Now a Low instead of a Mid Buff

· Hell Sparks

o Vertical hit box reduced Nerf

o Increased recovery frames Nerf

· D4 – Increased recovery frames Nerf

· Damage – Increased damage output overall Buff

· Krushing Shoulder – Able to juggle off it with F22 (both Bone Shaper and Non-Bone Shaper) Buff

· 11 – Fix hit box issues Buff

· Jump in 1 – Range reduction Nerf

· X-Ray – Bitch slaps into Brutality

· D2 – Made into a High instead of a Mid Nerf

Necromancer:

· Devil’s Flick

o Improve tracking Buff

o Reduced start up frames Buff

o Reverted back to -4 on block Buff

· Summoned Fiend

o Improve tracking Buff

o Safe(r) on block Buff

o Becomes a Low Buff

o Reduce start up frames (fast enough to anti-air) Buff

o Able to Brutality off of​

· Judgment Fist

o Becomes an 11 Frame Overhead instead of Unblockable (similar to Tremor’s Rock Drop) Buff

o Cancel-able (similar to MK9 Jax’s Ground Pound) Buff

· Summoned Slam

o Able to utilize twice in one combo Buff

o Armored Buff

· Variation Aesthetics – Remove silly bone hands in exchange for another aesthetic identifier (possibly Pimp Rings)

Impostor:

· Stolen Moves – Different stolen moves from the following characters:

o Kenshi​

o Takeda​

o Jacqui​

o Ferra/Torr​

o Raiden​

o Goro​

o Jason​

o Predator​

· Mimicry

o Kenshi – Steal “Blade Reflect” or “Rising Karma” instead of “Rising Sword”​

o Takeda – Steal “Fist Whirlwind” instead of “Tornado Kick”​

o Raiden – Steal “Shocker” instead of “Electric Fly”​

o Predator – Steal “Scimitar Slam” instead of “Stealth”, or add the ability to combo into Mimicry while Stealth is already active at the cost of removing the invisibility.​

o Add an Ex version of Mimicry (or MB version) with him gaining armor on that move, and gain the Enhanced properties of that move if it does not already have the Enhanced properties. Buff

· Air-Tricky Portal – Increase recovery frames Nerf

Bone Shaper:

· Dark Beam – Revert to -8 on block instead of -12. Buff

· F221+3 – Make the “1+3” part of the string able to come out on block (+2 and as a string not a throw/grab) Buff

Both Impostor and Necromancer:

· Amulet Strike

o Reduce start up frames Buff

o Reduce recovery frames Buff

o Safe on block (around -5/-6) Buff

o Made into a Mid instead of a High. Buff
The changes you listed looks good. you should add this if you want.

-- Universal


B1 has more pushback on block ... for all 3 Hellsparks to connect


-- BoneShaper

(( F4,1,D2,U2 is currently useless at a -11 on block and doesn't launch the opponent high enough for a follow up ))

F4,1,D2,U2 --- U2 is +1 on Block.
F4,1,D2,U2 --- U2 has more hit advantage for a follow up Scepter Slam or Scepter Launch
F4,1,D2,U2 --- There's a GAP between D2 & U2.

Also the same goes for: F3,1,D2,U2


-- Imposter

Add a new move EX Mimicry which Hits full screen like Quan Chi's EX Trance

EX Mimicry give Shinnok 50% damage Buff instead of the Regular 33% .... lol :D Just Kidding


-- Necromancer (( My Favorite Variation ))

- Like you suggested : Judgment Fist Becomes an 11 Frame Overhead instead of an Unblockable & Cancel-able. But Judgment Smach Remains the same .... A Slow Unblockable
 

SaSSolino

Soul Stealing Loyalist
· Krushing Shoulder – Able to juggle off it with F22 (both Bone Shaper and Non-Bone Shaper) Buff
nah man! I meant only into impostor/necro's f22. ex shoulder into scepter is just too cool!

plus I like the idea of having f22throw come out on block, but +2 on block? shinnok doesn't need it with a 7f low.


The changes you listed looks good. you should add this if you want.

-- Universal


B1 has more pushback on block ... for all 3 Hellsparks to connect


-- BoneShaper

(( F4,1,D2,U2 is currently useless at a -11 on block and doesn't launch the opponent high enough for a follow up ))

F4,1,D2,U2 --- U2 is +1 on Block.
F4,1,D2,U2 --- U2 has more hit advantage for a follow up Scepter Slam or Scepter Launch
F4,1,D2,U2 --- There's a GAP between D2 & U2.

Also the same goes for: F3,1,D2,U2


-- Imposter

Add a new move EX Mimicry which Hits full screen like Quan Chi's EX Trance

EX Mimicry give Shinnok 50% damage Buff instead of the Regular 33% .... lol :D Just Kidding


-- Necromancer (( My Favorite Variation ))

- Like you suggested : Judgment Fist Becomes an 11 Frame Overhead instead of an Unblockable & Cancel-able. But Judgment Smach Remains the same .... A Slow Unblockable
the b1 buff sounds nice and a launching f41d2u2 with a gap added is just a lovely idea, but not +1 on block, not with hellsparks.
 
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x-azeez

Bullet with your name on it
nah man! I meant only into impostor/necro's f22. ex shoulder into scepter is just too cool!

plus I like the idea of having f22throw come out on block, but +2 on block? shinnok doesn't need it with a 7f low.




the b1 buff sounds nice and a launching f41d2u2 with a gap added is just a lovely idea, but not +1 on block, not with hellsparks.

U1 will not be cancel-able with less pushback on block & Shinnok will take a risk throwing it since it has a Gap ..... And should be 0 on block at least.
 

SaSSolino

Soul Stealing Loyalist
U1 will not be cancel-able with less pushback on block & Shinnok will take a risk throwing it since it has a Gap ..... And should be 0 on block at least.
he does take a risk, but you can still cancel f41d2 in safe-ish dark beam (that should be -8 on block) or full combo on hit hell sparks. if you make f41d2u2 launch, that once again is a good idea, the string should be -6 or something like that even with a gap in my opinion. don't forget that you can use it to punish and could lead to actually really good damage in the corner; plus connecting the scepter afterwards would just be sooo good looking... DO WANT.
 

x-azeez

Bullet with your name on it
he does take a risk, but you can still cancel f41d2 in safe-ish dark beam (that should be -8 on block) or full combo on hit hell sparks. if you make f41d2u2 launch, that once again is a good idea, the string should be -6 or something like that even with a gap in my opinion. don't forget that you can use it to punish and could lead to actually really good damage in the corner; plus connecting the scepter afterwards would just be sooo good looking... DO WANT.

I just hope NRS make f41d2u2 useful in some way .... it utterly useless right now
 

x-azeez

Bullet with your name on it
he does take a risk, but you can still cancel f41d2 in safe-ish dark beam (that should be -8 on block) or full combo on hit hell sparks. if you make f41d2u2 launch, that once again is a good idea, the string should be -6 or something like that even with a gap in my opinion. don't forget that you can use it to punish and could lead to actually really good damage in the corner; plus connecting the scepter afterwards would just be sooo good looking... DO WANT.

Just like Tanya's B3,1(GAP),2 .....she can go into either B3,1 Rakkas or B3,1,2 and be plus +2 on Block ... the same goes fpr f41d2u2, either go for F4,1D2 into specail cancel and be Negetive on block or Go for the full string with the risk of a Gap and be Plus on Block
 

SaSSolino

Soul Stealing Loyalist
Just like Tanya's B3,1(GAP),2 .....she can go into either B3,1 Rakkas or B3,1,2 and be plus +2 on Block ... the same goes fpr f41d2u2, either go for F4,1D2 into specail cancel and be Negetive on block or Go for the full string with the risk of a Gap and be Plus on Block
Tanya is broken so it's not really the best example, plus b312 doesn't launch.
 

STB Damashi

SmallBurntEarths
Kunai sucks, why not ex fist flurry? Let's get a vortex bruh!
Isn't Ex Fist Flurry unsafe though and has an extremely slow start-up? I think Kunai would be awesome because Takeda's normals are relatively slow so even if Shinnok is a bit minus, he'll destroy them with his F4 or he can simply jump out and Teleport and other shenanigans.
 

STB Damashi

SmallBurntEarths
nah man! I meant only into impostor/necro's f22. ex shoulder into scepter is just too cool!

plus I like the idea of having f22throw come out on block, but +2 on block? shinnok doesn't need it with a 7f low.




the b1 buff sounds nice and a launching f41d2u2 with a gap added is just a lovely idea, but not +1 on block, not with hellsparks.
F22Throw is +2 on block according to the frame data. However, it is impossible to hit the opponent with the whole string while they're blocking. Also, oh okay I'll make sure to adjust the F22 part and add in the sceptor part lol
 

SaSSolino

Soul Stealing Loyalist
Isn't Ex Fist Flurry unsafe though and has an extremely slow start-up? I think Kunai would be awesome because Takeda's normals are relatively slow so even if Shinnok is a bit minus, he'll destroy them with his F4 or he can simply jump out and Teleport and other shenanigans.
meh, I like vortexes.
 

x-azeez

Bullet with your name on it
D4 hell sparks gone

Hell sparks vertical hit box reduced
They only need to decrease the vertical hitbox of the First Hit of Hellspark by half or more, cause that's what causes the most problem for every character when they predict a Hellsparks is coming, but they get hit by the first hellspark even when they time it Perfectly .... Examples: ( Kano, Johnny, Kung Jin, QuanChi, Takeda, ......(( Kenshi :DOGE ))
 
amulet blast needs to have a use.

currently its too slow to do anything, too unsafe to throw out and too short of a range to do any kind of zoning.

i would make it come out faster and safer on block since everything shinnok does is unsafe on block. when buffed, at least he can end strings with that.

other than that and having better stolent moves, hes fine (at least for imposter variation). i would give him back 5 more plus frames on his mb hell sparks cuz mb hellspark strings are fun as fuck.

People really need to learn the spacing for getting over hell sparks, I was playing casuals with someone the other day and jumping through them just fine :)
too much work, its easier to bitch about it and cry for nerfs than learning how to fight against it.
 

SaSSolino

Soul Stealing Loyalist
amulet blast needs to have a use.

currently its too slow to do anything, too unsafe to throw out and too short of a range to do any kind of zoning.

i would make it come out faster and safer on block since everything shinnok does is unsafe on block. when buffed, at least he can end strings with that.

other than that and having better stolent moves, hes fine (at least for imposter variation). i would give him back 5 more plus frames on his mb hell sparks cuz mb hellspark strings are fun as fuck.



too much work, its easier to bitch about it and cry for nerfs than learning how to fight against it.
I agree, but I also dream of having 3 as a low. just imagine all the meter building with your new, hitconfirmable in safe amulet, low post mimicry option...

 

x-azeez

Bullet with your name on it
amulet blast needs to have a use.

currently its too slow to do anything, too unsafe to throw out and too short of a range to do any kind of zoning.

i would make it come out faster and safer on block since everything shinnok does is unsafe on block. when buffed, at least he can end strings with that.

This is what the shinnok community wants from Amulet Strike

· Amulet Strike

o Reduce start up frames

o Reduce recovery frames

o Safe on block (around -5/-6)

o Made into a Mid instead of a High.
 

SaSSolino

Soul Stealing Loyalist
@STB Damashi almost forgot, that's pretty important: necro/impostor's f22 hitbox fix, not sure if guys noticed, but small hitbox cassie can duck the second hit of the f224 string even while blocking, she can just poke/d2/armor out of it.


This is what the shinnok community wants from Amulet Strike

· Amulet Strike

o Reduce start up frames

o Reduce recovery frames

o Safe on block (around -5/-6)

o Made into a Mid instead of a High.
wouldn't be bad to have some decent meter when you negate a projectile with it either, so it's actually worth the risk.
 
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x-azeez

Bullet with your name on it
@STB Damashi almost forgot, that's a really important fix: necro/impostor's f22 hitbox fix, not sure if guys noticed, but small hitbox characters can duck the second hit of the f224 string even while blocking. tried with cassie myself and she can just poke out of that string.
Also The F224 string doesn't have enough cancel advantage frames & -18 on Block :D

wouldn't be bad to have some decent meter when you negate a projectile with it either, so it's actually worth the risk.
Amulet strike doesn't do anything in its current state. I have a nice idea for Amulet Strike against Zoners & Projectiles:

one of these three options should be implemented:

1. When Shinnok Negates a Projectile, He gains Meter ... Around 20-25% Bar Meter . To discourage Zoners from carelessly throwing Projectiles and Play Smart.

2. When Shinnok Negates A Projectile. He gains 2% Health Back

3. When Shinnok Negates a Projectile. The next time Shinnok does an Amulet Strike. He throws a Fast Mid Projectile with projectile absorption properties around 10% Damage on Hit & 3% Chip Damage on Block (( 0 on Block )) .... Just like Ronin Takeda EX DF3 (( Piercing Beam )) .. but Faster

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This is a Dream Buff.

Amulet Strike can negates and stock up to three time.

One Stock usage allows Shinnok to throw a fast mid projectile at 6% damage with a new input DF1

Two Stocks usage allows Shinnok to replenish 50% Bar of Meter with new input DB3 ... or Remove %50 Bar of Meter from the Opponent with new input DF3

Three Stocks usage allows Shinnok to replenish 12% of Health with new input DF2

Show some kind of visual indicator to how many stocks Shinnok has stocked up. Example: one stock turns the hands and surround it with Purple Flames/ two stocks into orange / three stocks into red

Shinnok is allowed to throw DF1 Projectile three times if he has three stocks & and the same goes to two stocks.

one can only Dream :rolleyes:
 
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STB Damashi

SmallBurntEarths
This is what the shinnok community wants from Amulet Strike

· Amulet Strike

o Reduce start up frames

o Reduce recovery frames

o Safe on block (around -5/-6)

o Made into a Mid instead of a High.
I think he was talking about Amulet Curse. It has a slower start up than regular Amulet Strike and it has shorter range