Who in your opinion is the best character in the entire game ?

[Schuyler]

id say lao, shinnok , quan chi, tanya, Pred, cassie

shinnok quan and tanya can all swich spots though.

 

[Schuyler]

If anyone puts cassie higher than number 4 im done.

 

[xxFalcon Loverxx]

Anything I don't know how to fight is broken in my book.

 

[snort]

Mr E. Black.

 

[HanSolo]

I take it since he didn't even make the poll the days of erron black up-playing have finally passed.


I voted tanya personally

 

[Goat-City]

I didn't write enough for you to misread it. It was just two sentences.

So, how did that nerfing work out for Raiden?

Singular tweaks to characters can go a very long way. Just make those singular tweaks matter just a little for mid-tier characters - and make them matter a lot low tier characters. We all know the difference between a minor boost and a game-changer, so stop with trying to make it look impossible. You're not speaking to the uninformed.

Right, that's why I didn't misread it. I don't know what you're saying there.

How did what work out for Raiden? He was over nerfed; he did not receive extremely minor adjustments and now he needs buffs. What they did with Hellfire Scorpion is a very good example of how to balance top tier pressure characters easily and simply.

Here's how I think the entire S to A+ tier can be nerfed/made more fair and less brain dead aside from maybe Summoner Quan and HQT Predator: Make block breakers 1 bar and add 3% of a bar of meter gain for every attack you block. I can explain the reasons for these if you want, but even if they don't make these 2 changes, the point is that it's very easy to balance the top tier. For Summoner all they have to do is make the bat a mid, for HQT make his laser cancel pressure non-guaranteed, for Tempest increase his j2's start up by a few frames and add a gap or 2 in his pressure strings. Very simple fixes here.

As a Sub Zero player, I can tell you that Cryomancer would need far more significant and varied changes to make him viable than the ones I just gave for those 3 top tier characters, and that's just 1 example. So if the top tier can be easily fixed, then why not do it when doing that would improve the game much, MUCH more than simply buffing lower tiered characters to their level would? Saying giving top tier characters small tweaks could potentially ruin them while also saying that giving lower tier characters small tweaks could not potentially break them is a nonsensical argument. If you're going to say 1 side can be messed up with small tweaks then you have to say the other side can too. Slightly nerf the top tier first, then see if the low and mid tier characters still need buffs.

 

[-Deadman-]

So is there an honest counterpick to Tempest other than SonicFox?

 

[Pig Of The Hut]

@Slips needs to a-Paulo-gize for this insane Cassie downplaying

 

[Gisbert]

Tanya has pressure but Lao has pressure + aa + teleport w/ launcher/grab/combo starter, the range of the hat when jump and hit with 2, etc etc etc. Quan Chi is good until he's under pressure.

 

[JTB123]

@anybodywhothinkstheyknowallthematchupsfor10characters

You're smoking crack. Stop comparing tools and start comparing MU's.

This incessant obsession to list all the characters in terms of best -> worst is so misguided. In reality, at this point in the game's life, there is no top 10. We do not know enough about how every character fairs with every other character to properly determine this pecking order, and until we do, any fool quoting their 'top 10' list is comparing a set of tools through the eyes of their own character. Fucking half the cast is in the 'top 10' conversation, and supposedly none of the cast is in the 'top 5' conversation. When will TYM get a grip and stop being so presumptuous and assuming they in anyway at this point in the games life, when there are still at least 4 more characters to join the roster, are knowledgeable enough about every matchup for the 15 or 20 supposed 'top 10 characters' to officially rank everyone of them in order. Of course the case of fairly obvious for perhaps the very best 2 or 3 characters, but even after that it gets hazy.

@cR WoundCowboy I do not presume to know how to feel about Shinnok or how you come to these conclusions, but do you at least consider him in the conversation? Because if you don't that is ludicrous and is most likely you succumbing to you're own well-known downplaying tenancies.

inb4whoareyou?
inb4iknowthecharacter

I fear this will fall on deaf ears.

 

[just_2swift]

Nah fuck that why should your only option be a timed poke for someone like Lao to block a poke because that's the worst he has to fear and then it's his turn again

It needs to be atleast minus 5 so most chars can actually use their standing normals and not make a without worrying about being D4'd and beat his instant Divekick gimmick and backdash too

Block the dive kick punish the back dash.... ADAPT

 

[Phosferrax]

Block the dive kick punish the back dash.... ADAPT

I see you did not understand what he said...

 

[Slips]

@Slips needs to a-Paulo-gize for this insane Cassie downplaying

I don't see why. I never said she wasn't good, but this S tier talk I just don't understand.

 

[Geth]

Ferra.
You can't hit her.

 

[just_2swift]

Anyways I don't mind hat spin being -5 but at the same time i love how this thread turned into a Lao witch hunt. Really shows who the complete players are and separates the frauds.

 

[Phosferrax]

Anyways I don't mind hat spin being -5 but at the same time i love how this thread turned into a Lao witch hunt. Really shows who the complete players are and separates the frauds.

More like who the Lao downplayers are...

 

[MrSunshine]

Dont listen to these kung lao mains lol HE IS THE BEST. Quan a close second

 

[Wigy]

Block the dive kick punish the back dash.... ADAPT

Still a guessing game on a BLOCKED COMBO STARTER

 

[GAV]

Right, that's why I didn't misread it. I don't know what you're saying there.

How did what work out for Raiden? He was over nerfed; he did not receive extremely minor adjustments and now he needs buffs. What they did with Hellfire Scorpion is a very good example of how to balance top tier pressure characters easily and simply.

Here's how I think the entire S to A+ tier can be nerfed/made more fair and less brain dead aside from maybe Summoner Quan and HQT Predator: Make block breakers 1 bar and add 3% of a bar of meter gain for every attack you block. I can explain the reasons for these if you want, but even if they don't make these 2 changes, the point is that it's very easy to balance the top tier. For Summoner all they have to do is make the bat a mid, for HQT make his laser cancel pressure non-guaranteed, for Tempest increase his j2's start up by a few frames and add a gap or 2 in his pressure strings. Very simple fixes here.

As a Sub Zero player, I can tell you that Cryomancer would need far more significant and varied changes to make him viable than the ones I just gave for those 3 top tier characters, and that's just 1 example. So if the top tier can be easily fixed, then why not do it when doing that would improve the game much, MUCH more than simply buffing lower tiered characters to their level would? Saying giving top tier characters small tweaks could potentially ruin them while also saying that giving lower tier characters small tweaks could not potentially break them is a nonsensical argument. If you're going to say 1 side can be messed up with small tweaks then you have to say the other side can too. Slightly nerf the top tier first, then see if the low and mid tier characters still need buffs.

You have me coming around. I'm OK with tweaks to top guys. I just don't want them neutered and I've seen that happen too often. Fisticuffs and Thunder God are perfect examples. Still, don't dismiss balancing from the bottom up. It can be made to work and it wouldn't take a degree in fight-game-ology either.

Gamechangers for the low tier guys and slight touch-ups to the mid-tiers could be a way to go as well.

Give the low tier fighters moves that give strategic advantage and/or help them win exchanges they had previously been known to lose. To simplify, tweak their moves through dynamics (like low or overhead), by making them safer on block, speeding them up, or increasing their active frames. For extreme cases like Goro, maybe even increase their walk speed.

Give the mid tier fighters tools for extending combos or give them unsafe tools that are for punishment purposes only - and not for regular offense.

 

[GAV]

In a fit of annoyance I uninstalled all my fighting games so I can see what I miss the most / what I have the strongest desire to actually play (my total lack of focus the last couple months has made me worse at every game I play, I was a better player two months ago).. But if MKX makes the cut and gets reinstalled (it probably will), I'm just going to learn Lao, and stop being a pussy. I'm not gonna lie, I don't play him becauae losing with the best character in the game makes me feel like garbage, lol

Fucker has everything AND Ive liked him since the first day I picked up the game. I didn't play him then because I couldn't RC and by the time I could RC he was so universally considered 'da bestest' that I felt like I'd be tier whoring to pick him up.

Someone PM me the absolute most important damn combos I should know =\

 

[TOC EdDoughBoy]

Just from my opinion. For those saying there's a possibility of Jax having no losing MU

Jax (Pumped up at least) loses to temp lao, Kobo Tanya, Johnny super slightly (you can literately do down 4 all day even on block), and Cassie's hit box still kinda screws him so another very slight loss.

I can explain why I think this if you ask but I'm to busy to type it now.

 

[Goat-City]

You have me coming around. I'm OK with tweaks to top guys. I just don't want them neutered and I've seen that happen too often. Fisticuffs and Thunder God are perfect examples. Still, don't dismiss balancing from the bottom up. It can be made to work and it wouldn't take a degree in fight-game-ology either.

Gamechangers for the low tier guys and slight touch-ups to the mid-tiers could be a way to go as well.

Give the low tier fighters moves that give strategic advantage and/or help them win exchanges they had previously been known to lose.

Give the mid tier fighters tools for extending combos or give them unsafe tools that are for punishment purposes only - and not for regular offense.

Agreed, the top tier just need minor changes. All of them are overpowered for the same reason, they get way too much reward for their block pressure and their extremely favorable mix ups that they can get started easily, so either decrease the reward, make the mix ups less favorable, or make them harder to get started. This is much better than allowing currently worse characters to do the same things because it's just much better gameplay. Improving the gameplay is just as important as balancing the roster; that's why it's essential that it's balanced by nerfing the top tier before buffing the low tier, because what does it matter if every character and variation is equally viable if they're all as brain dead as Tempest Kung Lao? Not even Tempest players think pressuring forever with barely guessable stagger strings in the corner for endless chip damage wins is fun or challenging.

 

[Pig Of The Hut]

I don't see why. I never said she wasn't good, but this S tier talk I just don't understand.

Whose Cassie have u played

 

[just_2swift]

Still a guessing game on a BLOCKED COMBO STARTER

Oh you mean F3 skrc?

 

[AK XEN0M0RPH]

CASSIE CAGE OMG NOT EVEN A QUESTION IMO.
(i use the word broke loosely to mean really good / damn near broke)
Reasons:
.flip kick is irritating
.exflip kick is broke(every time i say what is life i'm referring to this shit right here)
.just found out exnutpunch has invincibility frames like of course she needs it(hopefully onlyy on wake up)

.true 50/50.
-made safe with a bar (what is life)
-into vortex with a bar
-40% in corner
-41% into vortex with a bar in corner

.insane advancing string that moves 2.5 of her body
-can be made plus for no meter
-it's 10frame on start up.

.fastest b*tch in the game.
-6frame safe wakeup(what is life)
-5frame punisher
--that's zero on block(or -6 if you suck at hit confirming)
-(what is life)
-6 frame pokes (d1 and d3)
-5 frame jump in punch and a kung lao like jump in punch that's faster than his

.stupid instant air guns for even better space control oh and they do 2.5 percent when you block them.
.5% guaranteed SAFE chip damage string with mid range(long ass fuck when compared to lui lui's safe chip strings but eh wtvs)
.OH AND HER HITBOX MY GOD HER HITBOX. remember when she could duck block kano's knives? or the fact that jax's only buff was basically because her hitbox made her one of his worsts match ups ever. Or that quan chi has to run cancel to hit his chip string on her. LIke was is this character WHAT IS LIFE!
oh wait wait i forgot to mention SHE FLIPS YOU OFF AT THE LOADING SCREEN.
AND TAKES A SCREENSHOT OFF YOUR DEATH
so nrs please nerf her frames, hitbox ,attitude and remove flipkick from this game.
also @Pig Of The Hut please don't ask nrs to nerf her cus they never listen to your requests for nerfs/buffs(R.I.P kenshi) but seriously WHY DOES SHE FLIP ME OFF LIKE I KNOW I'M GONNA GET FUCKED I DON'T NEED YOU TELLING ME


...in case you couldn't tell she's my training partner's main so i have a lot of salt in my veins right now(fyi there is no 5frame move in the game, that's supposed to be a joke).

I would love if cassie had this frame data. But sadly, she does not. Might wanna go check on the numbers