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Who Do You Think Is Top 5 In EO Beta?

PND_Ketchup

"More deadly than the dawn"
This is essentially my argument, but if you look around this site you will see people claiming they have no options against Mileena and that she is OP. That is not the case. If you put a good character in a great players hands of course things will happen, but does that make her OP?
Is the point that Mileena is overpowered though? Or that she's really good?
 

TotteryManx

cr. HP Master
God yes. Thank you.

On an early page I was semi kidding when I played Devils Advocate and joked "Mileena community on blast". Truth in the matter is, I respect players like Foxy and Reo because they are smart and wildly talented and when I hear REO on stream explain his thoughts on Mileena being top and Foxy backing those claims up, I take note lol.

As for users that jump to "this is dick riding at it's best" ( @xKhaoTik ), no no, some of us just respect the opinions of Reo and Foxy.

Just like @Phosferrax basically said, it's time to sit up and listen when the big boys are talking.
Now I see what some mean by "dick rider." Their post said everything I have been trying to point out, but hey, gotta let a certain someone say it or it doesn't matter. smh
 

REO

Undead
I'm not just talking about being low profiled. 21 leaves you at advantage on block. Sometimes if I follow up with d1 it whiffs, even if my opponent does not press a button. It just breezes by. I want to make something clear. I'm not saying Mileena is bad. In fact, she is great, but there are several posters on this site talking as if you have no options against her. If a great player picks up a good character he/she is going to make her look very strong. People were saying the same thing about your Jason at one point. That doesn't mean the character is OP...it means you're being outplayed and I will stand by that.
2,1 isn't plus on block. You shouldn't be following up with D+1 with strings or normals that have pushback. She has many other normals or strings you can frame trap with D+1 after.

And saying a character is top tier doesn't mean they're broken or overpowered. It just means they have less losing match ups or more tools when compared to the rest of the cast.

Literally Mileena's only huge weakness (and it was one that had a great impact) was the fact that she couldn't escape out of many frame traps or pressure by poking like other characters in the game. She had to rely on her full combo punishable roll to get out of rushdown. They now got rid of her biggest flaw completely and in turn not just gave her a 7F or 8F poke, but gave her the FASTEST version of a poke at 6 frames. This has many side effects and for sure puts Mileena under the category of characters that do not have any glaring weaknesses at all.
 

EMPRESS_SunFire

Regina George of discord
Is it not true? Are you suggesting we shouldn't take note of their opinion and knowledge?

"Big boys" is just an expression. :)
I mean, as I said before... Top players can be wrong, we are all humen (is this a word) so the whole "shut up and listen" argument is dick riding for sure. Why not express your opinion just like everyone else?
 

TotteryManx

cr. HP Master
2,1 isn't plus on block. You shouldn't be following up with D+1 with strings or normals that have pushback. She has many other normals or strings you can frame trap with D+1 after.

And saying a character is top tier doesn't mean they're broken or overpowered. It just means they have less losing match ups or more tools when compared to the rest of the cast.

Literally Mileena's only huge weakness (and it was one that had a great impact) was the fact that she couldn't escape out of many frame traps or pressure by poking like other characters in the game. She had to rely on her full combo punishable roll to get out of rushdown. They now got rid of her biggest flaw completely and in turn not just gave her a 7F or 8F poke, but gave her the FASTEST version of a poke at 6 frames. This has many side effects and for sure puts Mileena under the category of characters that do not have any glaring weaknesses at all.
I meant 1,2 so my bad. You know, the 1 being a high that can be low profiled...

I agree with your second point, but you should take a look around these forums at some posts. It's why I'm in this thread to begin with.

Her d1 is wack midscreen. I'm sure you have dabbled with Kotal and his 6 frame d1 makes a massive difference, why? Because it doesn't whiff randomly. Hers is janky. I just wish people would lab it more instead of assuming. It's tiring.

EDIT: imo her biggest buff came awhile back with b12.
 

xKhaoTik

The Ignore Button Is Free
God yes. Thank you.

On an early page I was semi kidding when I played Devils Advocate and joked "Mileena community on blast". Truth in the matter is, I respect players like Foxy and Reo because they are smart and wildly talented and when I hear REO on stream explain his thoughts on Mileena being top and Foxy backing those claims up, I take note lol.

As for users that jump to "this is dick riding at it's best" ( @xKhaoTik ), no no, some of us just respect the opinions of Reo and Foxy.

Just like @Phosferrax basically said, it's time to sit up and listen when the big boys are talking.
I'm gonna be nice.

Idk if you took my post the wrong way or anything, but it wasn't a shot to foxy or REO at all. I wasnt downplaying their opinion. I wasn't even disagreeing with the placement of Mileena. I just think people shouldn't say a character is top tier just because top player says so.

Someone said "foxy dropped lao for mileena so she's top 5". That's a dumb reason to be top 5. And just because someone drops a character for another character doesn't necessarily mean that new character is better. Wasn't REO using characters like Kung Jin, Tanya and Erron Black before dropping them for Jason? JASON?!

BUT if you want to not have an opinion for your own and just live based on what others are saying, then go right ahead. My point still stands: dickriding at its finest.
 
Srsly? Who do you against? I didn't fight a single good Kitana in the beta, she still lacks any mixups and new sharpen doesn't help at all.
21 ex sharpen is plus on block, she has mixups after ending a combo with u2 float. f1 throw stagger is good too, just as ji float nj.
just because kitana doesnt have derpy 50/50s doesnt mean shes not extremely good.

as for playing against good kitanas, there are many on beta.
 
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xKhaoTik

The Ignore Button Is Free
21 ex sharpen is plus on block, she has mixups after ending a combo with u2 lift. f1 throw stagger is good too, just as ji float nj.
just because kitana doesnt have derpy 50/50s doesnt mean shes not extremely good.

as for playing against good kitanas, there are many on beta.
Hi <3

What's u2 lift btw lol
 

TheGabStandard

The anticipation is killing me
All this arguing and going around in circles......

2,1 isn't plus on block.
I'm assuming Tottery meant to type 12 as the string he was talking about instead of 21.

Anyway, this argument is getting ridiculous. Might be naivety but I can only see positive outcomes from REO's and Foxy's posts, regardless of whether people agree or not. While some of the Empress community may disagree with them I do feel some of the unnecessary tones of the replies given shine a negative light on us.
 

dennycascade

UPR_ghastem
Under what circumstances do you decline people in the beta?
Between matches I get declined like 5 or 6 times before someone finally accepts. Ping is like 60-80 for everyone. Why you ducking, people?
 

xKhaoTik

The Ignore Button Is Free
Under what circumstances do you decline people in the beta?
Between matches I get declined like 5 or 6 times before someone finally accepts. Ping is like 60-80 for everyone. Why you ducking, people?
I usually decline because I'm trying to get paired up with friends who want to play lol
 

WiseM0nkey

welcome to the ButtSlam
Not frustrated, I've simply given in. I was wrong. How can this character be OP when Kung Lao is running around with a dive kick and a teleport that has FOUR options? I mean, are these people insane?

I've seen the light.
you forgot that Overpowered EX Spin :DOGE

The difference is that I've been playing Mileena for a long time. It's why some of us are a little irritated. Foxy is easily the second best player in the world, but when I see him play I can't help but think, "why didn't his opponent do this or that?" I understand the character. Foxy is just outplaying people. I'm throwing a fit about people talking like she is OP and you can't do anything about her options, which is false.
it's kinda easy to say things like "oh dude, you could've done that" or "you could've done this.." from a spectator POV. but what if he doesnt do that cause he's conditioned to not to do that. Conditioning it's a big factor, and F0xy is good at it, he'll punish everything, and make you do stuff he wants you to do.

that being said, a character needs to have the tools to do so, just like Mileena does. If anything, Piercing is the closest thing to Tempest as far as rush down gameplan.
 

TotteryManx

cr. HP Master
All this arguing and going around in circles......


I'm assuming Tottery meant to type 12 as the string he was talking about instead of 21.

Anyway, this argument is getting ridiculous. Might be naivety but I can only see positive outcomes from REO's and Foxy's posts, regardless of whether people agree or not. While some of the Empress community may disagree with them I do feel some of the unnecessary tones of the replies given shine a negative light on us.
I'll back this post. At the end of the day, I'll just learn more.
 

Infamous

Banned
I'm gonna be nice.

Idk if you took my post the wrong way or anything, but it wasn't a shot to foxy or REO at all. I wasnt downplaying their opinion. I wasn't even disagreeing with the placement of Mileena. I just think people shouldn't say a character is top tier just because top player says so.

Someone said "foxy dropped lao for mileena so she's top 5". That's a dumb reason to be top 5. And just because someone drops a character for another character doesn't necessarily mean that new character is better. Wasn't REO using characters like Kung Jin, Tanya and Erron Black before dropping them for Jason? JASON?!

BUT if you want to not have an opinion for your own and just live based on what others are saying, then go right ahead. My point still stands: dickriding at its finest.
I'll also be nice.

I didn't think or know if your post was directed at me per se, but I never once gave my opinion on Mileena. I simply stated what Reo and Foxy had BEEN saying and thought it was interesting considering the majority's opinion of Mileena.

I understand legit dick riding exsists, but if I say I simply respect their opinions because of their skill, intelligence, and experience in WINNING warrants the term "dick riding", that seems salty jealous to me.
 

Jolt

Uprise
Wait what? Who ever said she wasn't strong with these changes? We used to consider her low tier and now we are all saying she could be potential high tier (at least myself) or upper mid tier at worst.
I will say that I put Mileena just about equal to my beloved Sonya, and for me that's good enough. I 100% agree with you, Mileena is good. I think a lot of the confusion comes from people missing where we got buffs after complaining about her (Pre-September) and September she still had some legitimate bugs. MY whole issue was not having a check for +2 strings like 1, 12, etc. Now we have d3 and I'm fine with that. What I DIDN'T consider was:

Literally Mileena's only huge weakness (and it was one that had a great impact) was the fact that she couldn't escape out of many frame traps or pressure by poking like other characters in the game. She had to rely on her full combo punishable roll to get out of rushdown. They now got rid of her biggest flaw completely and in turn not just gave her a 7F or 8F poke, but gave her the FASTEST version of a poke at 6 frames. This has many side effects and for sure puts Mileena under the category of characters that do not have any glaring weaknesses at all.
I didn't consider the way that d1 being 6 frames could shift the balance of things, BUT when it was 9 frames before it just wasn't worth it due to the move's *horizontal* hitbox sometimes whiffing. The vertical has never (to me) been an issue. Horizontally, it sometimes goes garbage on me. I'd be fine with it moved to 7 or 8 frames, but at the 9f it was before, there was just too much of a question on whether it would reach. It did admittedly seem to become better each patch though.

This is where I think people get confused about the situation.

For example, Foxy was trying to explain to everyone a few months back that Mileena has the tools to be super safe and effective that way, where as the main complaints from Mileena players on TYM was that she was way too unsafe and risky, mainly because she was played as a yolo 50/50 character.

Let's just acknowledge that maybe things aren't set in stone yet. Characters are evolving.
Now, lastly. This is where I personally take a bit of issue. I'll openly admit, I'm not the world's best Mileena (not even close). I'm trash among the bunch lol. But without F0xy telling us specifically what he was talking about, it was really difficult for anyone to truly take away what he means. Even now, he doesn't speak too specifically. He most recently said "her true mid that can whiff punish any low profile move" but a non--Mileena player might not even know what he's talking about.

F0xy *from what I have seen* has typically been VAGUE in terms of Mileena. "You can play as safe as you want" doesn't have the same tone as "You rubbish lot! You are doing b12 into b12 when you should be doing b12 and then step back to see what they do" or something like that. I'm not dissing Foxy, maybe vague is his style. But it's difficult to get people stuck in their own heads to see the picture you're painting if you don't turn around the canvas.

Anyways, everyone's crazy. Mileena is good, beta Mileena is great (for the way I wish to play). For me, she's now an equal to Sonya in terms of using tactics that I'd like to use (While having tools for different situations) so I'm happy with her. I guess she could be top 5 in beta, I'm still not convinced but if she is then I'd say most of the characters are pretty damn close.

Seems like just about everyone has their special brand of dirt now
 

TotteryManx

cr. HP Master
you forgot that Overpowered EX Spin :DOGE



it's kinda easy to say things like "oh dude, you could've done that" or "you could've done this.." from a spectator POV. but what if he doesnt do that cause he's conditioned to not to do that. Conditioning it's a big factor, and F0xy is good at it, he'll punish everything, and make you do stuff he wants you to do.

that being said, a character needs to have the tools to do so, just like Mileena does. If anything, Piercing is the closest thing to Tempest as far as rush down gameplan.
Man, I'll agree with that, but that also comes back to my biggest point. Someone is being outplayed, but that doesn't make her OP.
 

xKhaoTik

The Ignore Button Is Free
I'll also be nice.

I didn't think or know if your post was directed at me per se, but I never once gave my opinion on Mileena. I simply stated what Reo and Foxy had BEEN saying and thought it was interesting considering the majority's opinion of Mileena.

I understand legit dick riding exsists, but if I say I simply respect their opinions because of their skill, intelligence, and experience in WINNING warrants the term "dick riding", that seems salty jealous to me.
O idk who's jealous lol. It's definitely not me. I couldn't care less if she's top 5 or not. I enjoy playing the character and that's all that matters to me.

All I'm saying is, if I were to state why a character is top 5, I'll give legit reasons why they are. MUs, tools, etc will be discussed. Never will I ever say a character is top 5 because someone else says so. That person isn't God, so their opinion shouldn't be the end all be all to things.