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Which 3rd Variations Have Promise?

I think with a few hitbox tweaks to Sickle Toss, Pitch Black Noob would be quite promising. Sickle Snag is already an excellent combo extender and I've found a lot of use with Shadow Dive as an air-to-air. But the lack of a decent zoning tool like Shadow Slide, Spirit Ball, or Ghost Ball makes it really hard to find reasons to play this over Seeing Double.

Pitch Black currently feels like a poor man's Dark Sabbath. All of the risk, but less of the reward.
 

umgogo

The Memory Protector
How does he get more damage off BnBs? Like, off a 111 or a f22 hitconfirm. Unless I cash out and uses a second bar, I’m only able to do maybe 1% more damage per combo unless I start with S23. I think you’re overlooking clean cuts restand quite a bit, he can always use it to end his combos without a damage loss even mid screen unlike speed demon, meaning he never has to deal with all the defensive options the opponent has on knockdown. I’ll agree the low is very high risk, but I still find it to be a great tool to open people up despite it being punishable. People seem to always block high after they see b1 until you show you’re going to low hook a lot. I also don’t think the low hook sending them full screen is a bad thing, in all but a few MUs, full screen is where I want my opponent so I can play lame again and force a mistake.
You can do starter, Nomad Dash, 23, Hook Grab, f3, Hook Slam for damage or starter, Low Spinner, 23/f22, Nomad Dash, f3, Hook Slam for corner carry. In the corner or on an anti-air/launching Krushing Blow, Hook Grab adds significant damage (especially if used before the damage-scaling Nomad Dash). While Low Hook Grab and Extended Hook have their uses (I'd trade Low Spinner for either of them, preferably Low Hook Grab), they do not outweigh Hook Grab's damage and Gas Blast's corner restands.
 

MsMiharo

Kuff Bano
Kano's 3rd variation is good. Kinda hard to compare to Ripper, because they play so differently but I think it might become his go to.
Kollector's 3rd is... Ass.

Other characters I have some knowledge of:
Frost is looking really good, especially Hey George's showing.
Shang is weird but pretty cool. Kombat makes him look good.
Baraka is good, but hard to compare since his main variation makes you explode for thinking it's your turn. While the 3rd might be more solid tools wise, gutted is gutted.
Shao Khan seems ass.

I think Kung Lao, Scorpion, Sonya, D'vorah and Jax look promising but I don't really play them
 

CrimsonShadow

Administrator and Community Engineer
Administrator
So far we're already up to half the cast. I think we can officially say that that "99% of 3rd variations are useless" talking point has been officially debunked, according to mains of these characters.

It seems like a lot of them are viable -- and hopefully the ones that aren't will receive some help at some point. Imo this is going to be an interesting upcoming tournament season and I'm curious to see how it plays out.
 
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Ermaculate_Slim

We are Many but we didnt make MK11 not one
Kollecters Squander variation should of been up there if NRS didnt completly ruin it.But theres quite a few useful 3rds but theres still alot of work to be done for the rest.Nrs pls fix Lock and Loaded
 

Vhozite

Waiting on SF6
Yeah i definitely think Avalanche Sub is his best variation. The fact that you can make his overhead safe for a bar is crazy.
 

M2Dave

Zoning Master
So far we're already up to half the cast. I think we can officially say that that "99% of 3rd variations are useless" talking point has been officially debunked, according to mains of these characters.
Nobody has ever said that "99% of third variations are useless". The vast majority of people who neither hate on nor suck up to NRS (and I think I speak for every person on this forum when I say you have made abundantly clear which category you belong in) said that the overwhelming majority of third variations would be useless, which remains accurate.

In a desperate and dishonest attempt to make your point, you list third variations that are usable in a handful of match ups, and I am being extremely generous to you with this statement. To use a character with whom I am very familiar as an example, Highborn is superior to both Fan-Fare and Fearless, which is universally acknowledged by all Kitana players. Higborn was even seen in the top 8 at East Coast Throwdown.

Obviously, when new variations are added to 28 characters, a handful of them (Arctic Anarchy, Avalanche, and Outtake to name a few) will be strong, even to the extent that a couple of them may even replace the other two variations, which was the entire point of my thread - a critique of the variation system in Mortal Kombat. You took my critique of the variation system as an attack on NRS so you proceeded to stick your nose even farther in all of their behinds. The reality is that the variation system is flawed and the overwhelming majority of the third variation are useless.
 

CrimsonShadow

Administrator and Community Engineer
Administrator
Nobody has ever said that "99% of third variations are useless". The vast majority of people who neither hate on nor suck up to NRS (and I think I speak for every person on this forum when I say you have made abundantly clear which category you belong in) said that the overwhelming majority of third variations would be useless, which remains accurate.

In a desperate and dishonest attempt to make your point, you list third variations that are usable in a handful of match ups, and I am being extremely generous to you with this statement. To use a character with whom I am very familiar as an example, Highborn is superior to both Fan-Fare and Fearless, which is universally acknowledged by all Kitana players. Higborn was even seen in the top 8 at East Coast Throwdown.

Obviously, when new variations are added to 28 characters, a handful of them (Arctic Anarchy, Avalanche, and Outtake to name a few) will be strong, even to the extent that a couple of them may even replace the other two variations, which was the entire point of my thread - a critique of the variation system in Mortal Kombat. You took my critique of the variation system as an attack on NRS so you proceeded to stick your nose even farther in all of their behinds. The reality is that the variation system is flawed and the overwhelming majority of the third variation are useless.
Although you weren't the only person to say it, your exact words were that "3-4" of them were viable -- and I think I'll let that statement speak for itself. But the "overwhelming majority of third variations" obviously aren't useless. We've already listed 13 here (out of a total of 20-something) that people feel are worthwhile, and that's coming straight from the people who play them.

A variation not being the best variation doesn't mean it's useless. For example, whether or not Upgraded is better than 1st Round KO, they are are clearly both viable. Your talking point is a logical fallacy.. And covering additional MUs is an important use of the variation system as a whole.

I will take the consensus word over one person saying that most of the variations are useless any day of the week. Just admit you were wrong and move on.
 
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Arqwart

D'Vorah for KP2 copium
We've already listed 13 here (out of a total of 20-something) that people feel are worthwhile, and that's coming straight from the people who play them.
I'm gunna preface this by saying that it doesnt make that big a difference (12 instead of 13), but the inclusion of Dark Fate seems disingenuous if you're trying to go for a numbers game here. The original discussion on the potential impact of third variations was within the context of the then current cast all the way up to Nightwolf who each had only 2 variations. Terminator was released with the 3 variations so he doesnt truly fit here in regards to the original context.

Just my random 2 cents.
 

CrimsonShadow

Administrator and Community Engineer
Administrator
I'm gunna preface this by saying that it doesnt make that big a difference (12 instead of 13), but the inclusion of Dark Fate seems disingenuous if you're trying to go for a numbers game here. The original discussion on the potential impact of third variations was within the context of the then current cast all the way up to Nightwolf who each had only 2 variations. Terminator was released with the 3 variations so he doesnt truly fit here in regards to the original context.

Just my random 2 cents.
If you're referring to Dave's statement, it was made on Saturday, long after Terminator's been out, in a thread in which Dark Fate was also discussed. But even if you were to ignore that it was said 3 days ago, 1 less wouldn't really change the overall gist of the conclusion here. It's clearly more than 3-4.
 

Snibbor

Yarrrr Matey
You can do starter, Nomad Dash, 23, Hook Grab, f3, Hook Slam for damage or starter, Low Spinner, 23/f22, Nomad Dash, f3, Hook Slam for corner carry. In the corner or on an anti-air/launching Krushing Blow, Hook Grab adds significant damage (especially if used before the damage-scaling Nomad Dash). While Low Hook Grab and Extended Hook have their uses (I'd trade Low Spinner for either of them, preferably Low Hook Grab), they do not outweigh Hook Grab's damage and Gas Blast's corner restands.
Using f22 as the starter, the first combo you listed does 310. The second does 298. Clean cuts BnB for a bar does 293, so basically speed demon does about .5%- 2% more damage per BnB is what I’m seeing. I don’t think that small damage increase + a bit more corner carry is enough to outweigh the benefits of having a high damaging restand ender that can be used to end every combo. I see that using the hook grab to extend AAs/KB combos adds significant damage, like 8-10%, that’s pretty awesome, but his launching KBs already do huge damage. I feel like using the bar to add more is situational to close out a round/gain a lifelead if possible, but not something you’re gonna want to do every time.
I also totally forgot to mention the KB on low hook, which is 100% viable and can easily make up for the small amount of damage lost by not having spinner/hook grab. Spinner doesn’t seem like that great of a move to me, it’s unsafe regardless of if you amp it or not, and in the corner you don’t really need it to launch because you can just throw a meterless saw after any starter and combo that way. The only good thing about it is a little extra corner carry.
 

umgogo

The Memory Protector
Using f22 as the starter, the first combo you listed does 310. The second does 298. Clean cuts BnB for a bar does 293, so basically speed demon does about .5%- 2% more damage per BnB is what I’m seeing. I don’t think that small damage increase + a bit more corner carry is enough to outweigh the benefits of having a high damaging restand ender that can be used to end every combo. I see that using the hook grab to extend AAs/KB combos adds significant damage, like 8-10%, that’s pretty awesome, but his launching KBs already do huge damage. I feel like using the bar to add more is situational to close out a round/gain a lifelead if possible, but not something you’re gonna want to do every time.
I also totally forgot to mention the KB on low hook, which is 100% viable and can easily make up for the small amount of damage lost by not having spinner/hook grab. Spinner doesn’t seem like that great of a move to me, it’s unsafe regardless of if you amp it or not, and in the corner you don’t really need it to launch because you can just throw a meterless saw after any starter and combo that way. The only good thing about it is a little extra corner carry.
Using the Extended Hook restand means sacrificing damage, the frame advantage is minimal, and even with the Low Hook Grab, Kabal's mix-up potential isn't good enough to take full advantage of it. And again, constant restands means the opponent will almost always Breakaway once you finally land that launching Krushing Blow or wake-up/FB u2.

Finally, to restand a cornered opponent with the EH, you have to sacrifice the corner or a lot of damage unless you use the Amp Buzzsaw, which only combos from 22 and b12. By contrast, Hook Grab lets you switch sides to restand with Gas Blast, which gives better frame advantage (and either even more frame advantage or the heal/DoT/no jumping gas cloud if you spend your second offensive bar to Amp it).

I don't think Kabal's Krushing Blow combos (or, indeed, any of his combos) are all that damaging without the Hook Grab. You ALWAYS want to use the offensive bar for the Hook Grab, because he doesn't need the bar for much else (apart from making his air Buzzsaw even safer).

The Low Hook KB is only really effective against players who don't know it exists. It won't trigger in 50/50 situations (i.e. after b1, f22 or f4), and there is no reason for the opponent to block high after anything else. Of course you can land it on occasion (mixing in short hop overheads, etc.), but the risk/reward ratio just isn't in Kabal's favour most of the time. If the KB condition were to change to "land it three times raw" or "land it five times, comboed or not", it might be a different story.

Like I said, Low Spinner is marginally useful, but at least it has its uses, unlike, you know, Nomad Spin.... ^_^

In short: without Hook Grab, Kabal's damage is sub-par given how hard it is to open people up. With Hook Grab, he becomes a threat at mid-screen and an outright menace in the corner. I used to be a Clean Cut main, and I still miss the Low Hook and its cool-looking KB, but SD's damage and corner game are just too good to pass up.
 
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UghGetOuttaHere

Number Cruncher. Jack of All Trades.
If you havent mentioned Buluc Kotal youre missing out. Safety/neutral reset with grand discus on block... totems on hit. Any string into df2, F4, throw = damage totem. Fully powered kotal [2 damage, 1 defense] is literally ridiculous. His f2,4 df2 amp is like 30+ %. While a full 1 bar combo done to him in this state does about 10% (if that).
The biggest weakenesses to this variation are: Need for set up, rush down teleporters, and extreme zoners.
But if you didnt know... kotal has variations to cover those flaws.
 

Sazbak

Noob
Avalanche is good and is fun to play.

Amp Creeping Ice is a safe low that you can chain to your f2 and it causes big pushback so it's like you reset back to neutral after using it.
Arctic Trap introduces a new kind of style to Sub-Zero(haven't played previous MK games) that is refreshing.