Question - Sonya Blade What makes CO her best variation? Seriously?

[Alright RyRy]

Please explain how the cancel is unsafe.

Also CrazySteady showed how good Demolition is at ESL.

Go into practice mode and do the B332 MS into Cancel against a character with a fast armored special. Cassie for example.

 

[Zoidberg747]

Go into practice mode and do the B332 MS into Cancel against a character with a fast armored special. Cassie for example.

What about off of b14?

 

[Skeezer12]

Covert Ops is Definitely Under The Other 2 Variations . In my opinion its Special Forces is the best .

 

[Alright RyRy]

What about off of b14?

Pretty sure its anytime she goes into MS. The active frames is just horrible on that move.

 

[HugeMcBigLarge]

Anytime she goes into MS she is punishable, it's true. BUT the person has to anticipate that you're going into MS. If it's a slow armor option, cartwheel will double hit and break armor. I do this A LOT. If your opponent is consistently punishing you for going into MS, you have a parry that you can happily cancel into instead. Characters with a good armor low special (slides) have a better option, but you're making them spend a bar of meter in a sub-optimal way. Reptile needs bar for his other combos, so eating a naked slide is fine. Sub is a pretty bad Match up for Sonya though

 

[HugeMcBigLarge]

I think technically CO will be listed as a lesser variation as the game goes on. She just has too many bad match ups. It's a feast or famine type playstyle, where you either DOMINATE the rush down and 50/50 and corner game. You can break armor with b33, you make them guess constantly, you can punish when they try to abuse your gaps (double hitting cartwheel from MS), you don't have to work to open people up because your 50/50 does that for you. She has awesome tools, but just insane weaknesses.

Grandmaster sub is a painful match up. Also, Kitana, Shinnok, kenshi are all really bad match ups. She will simply starve because she can't get in. So from a mathematical perspective I think SF and demo will have better match ups technically, but that's not why I play Sonya. I pick up other characters that can cover the zoning/keep away game a lot better. You can fill the holes in CO's weaknesses with other variations without sacrificing too much, but without the parry and additional MS mind games/mix ups, I think other characters have better damage and neutral tools.

 

[errormacro7]

I'll probably never be convinced that CO Sonya isn't her best variation simply b/c of the corner rape.

I feel this way as well.

 

[errormacro7]

What about off of b14?

When done at the right range, it's safe, iirc.

 

[Dedlock]

Sonya basically has no safe/abuse/guaranteed set ups/moves/specials in covert ops, in general B3,3,2 is not safe like we all assumed and this is something I've just gotten used to, MS gives her 3 Simple mix up options but two are interrupt-able and all extremely punishable, air throw is useless her air throw range is limited in comparison too Cassie's airthrow and lets not forget that cassie can ex her air throw for a bounce and free combo. Parries are painfully risky and requires a high level read of each individual character and user play style. her air drop which was the only semi safe comfort I used to use ( whiff baiting) is now punishable.

from what i've noticed in extended online play, most of the top/popular characters have that safe constant they resort to bail them out of trouble, like Kung Lao's Spin/Ex spin and Cassie's multitude of options, Kitana's ex bum is now one of the most advantageous moves in the game, with great range, Sonya in covert ops has none.

that is why I think for covert ops to really be a threat, Military Stance will have to be reassessed, retooled and refined and especially that Kartwheel (double Kick) at start up 22 frames, recovery 22 frames and block adv -18 frames WTF? add on top of that the plus 1 for Military Stance.

as for her corner traps, well from experience all it takes to stop her flow is a good ex wake up which most characters have and if they dont then thye most likely can teleport , Scorpion, Sub-Zero, Mileena, Kung lao, Kitana, Liu Kang, Cassie, Dvorah, Raiden, and many more all have no problems breaking out a corner trap, all it takes is one ex bar wake up. and if none of the above is working just R2 and front to break out of it.

 

[Zoidberg747]

Sonya basically has no safe/abuse/guaranteed set ups/moves/specials in covert ops, in general B3,3,2 is not safe like we all assumed and this is something I've just gotten used to, MS gives her 3 Simple mix up options but two are interrupt-able and all extremely punishable, air throw is useless her air throw range is limited in comparison too Cassie's airthrow and lets not forget that cassie can ex her air throw for a bounce and free combo. Parries are painfully risky and requires a high level read of each individual character and user play style. her air drop which was the only semi safe comfort I used to use ( whiff baiting) is now punishable.

from what i've noticed in extended online play, most of the top/popular characters have that safe constant they resort to bail them out of trouble, like Kung Lao's Spin/Ex spin and Cassie's multitude of options, Kitana's ex bum is now one of the most advantageous moves in the game, with great range, Sonya in covert ops has none.

that is why I think for covert ops to really be a threat, Military Stance will have to be reassessed, retooled and refined and especially that Kartwheel (double Kick) at start up 22 frames, recovery 22 frames and block adv -18 frames WTF? add on top of that the plus 1 for Military Stance.

as for her corner traps, well from experience all it takes to stop her flow is a good ex wake up which most characters have and if they dont then thye most likely can teleport , Scorpion, Sub-Zero, Mileena, Kung lao, Kitana, Liu Kang, Cassie, Dvorah, Raiden, and many more all have no problems breaking out a corner trap, all it takes is one ex bar wake up. and if none of the above is working just R2 and front to break out of it.

Sonya needs absolutely no buffs, let's make that clear. Her MS mixups are unsafe because they are so good, it's essentially a 50/50 into another 50/50, with the threat of a cancel into parry. The reason she has holes and can be punished is because otherwise her mixup game would make her absolutely broken.

She can break armor with 11(or is it 1,2, I cant remember) or she can just guess that they are going to wakeup and block. Every character in the game has to do this, sorry you just cant 50/50 them again without having to worry about wakeups lol. And are you seriously complaining about people getting out of the corner with breaker? If you ever make the opponent breaker that is a huge win for you, as they now have two less bars and no stamina. They also aren't out of the corner yet.

Demo is better than CO either way but that doesnt mean CO isnt still good. Its probably top 20 as far as variations go, and with the right amount of bracketology/luck she could still win a major.

 

[Dedlock]

nd are you seriously complaining about people getting out of the corner with breaker? If you ever make the opponent breaker that is a huge win for you, as they now have two less bars and no stamina. They also aren't out of the corner yet.

Oh I'm not complaining I was just advising those who were complaining about how "strong/broken" Sonya's corner game is, that after extended play online against a wide variety of players, Sonya's Corner games mostly affects noobs, who dont really know what options they;ve got to escape or how to block lows/OH, most of the matches against experienced /seasoned players especially those who main Scorpion, Mileena and kung Lao , even attempting to approach/trap them in the corner while they have a bar is close to suicide for a covert ops Sonya player because if their 8 and below frame wakeups manage to out hit box me they can absolutely destroy me and launch me for a lovely 33-35% plus combo of punishment. you see all of Sonya's mixups are not safe., they're tricky but once you get used to them and study their properties they all can be undone easily.

and with the right amount of bracketology/luck she could still win a major.

try alot of luck, as it stands in its current form, I cannot see covert ops winning any major, it lacks damage, safety, zoning and specials.

 

[errormacro7]

It's funny because even with the holes and weaknesses she has in her MS mixups, there are those that say she's a braindead character. Just LOL.

 

[Zoidberg747]

It's funny because even with the holes and weaknesses she has in her MS mixups, there are those that say she's a braindead character. Just LOL.

Its not so much that she is braindead but she revolves entirely around guessing. She just rushes in and forces you to guess(Sonya has ways to blow up people trying to blow up her holes). She's incredibly one-dimensional.

Also, as someone who has studied the character extensively and plays against her every week you will inevitably lose rounds and even matches simply because you guessed wrong. That tends to make people angry hence why they call her braindead.

 

[BillStickers]

In Covert Ops, Sonya gets 2 mixups for the price of 1 and a launching parry. She can also use b14 at all times (assuming proper spacing) instead of just when grenades or drone is available.

Also this is kind of a cheap shot at Covert Ops considering Demolition received a buff like 2 seconds ago. That's like saying you don't understand why no one uses Ethereal even though it just received major buffs and was total cheeks before that.

I'm still not sold on the Demolition hype (I think people just don't know what to do about it yet), but I've been told it's extremely good now, so we'll see.

 

[errormacro7]

Its not so much that she is braindead but she revolves entirely around guessing. She just rushes in and forces you to guess(Sonya has ways to blow up people trying to blow up her holes). She's incredibly one-dimensional.

Also, as someone who has studied the character extensively and plays against her every week you will inevitably lose rounds and even matches simply because you guessed wrong. That tends to make people angry hence why they call her braindead.

I understand that she can be salt inducing, but calling a character braindead due to your lack of MU knowledge or because you're not exploiting their weaknesses is a scrub attitude IMO. I believe her MS is actually a watered down version of her MK9 iteration. I mained her in MK9 and that version was a lot worse. CO is not even her best variation anymore.

 

[RM Truth]

Please explain how the cancel is unsafe.

Also CrazySteady showed how good Demolition is at ESL.

I think he means that you can armor through all of her options except for the low.

 

[errormacro7]

In Covert Ops, Sonya gets 2 mixups for the price of 1 and a launching parry. She can also use b14 at all times (assuming proper spacing) instead of just when grenades or drone is available.

Also this is kind of a cheap shot at Covert Ops considering Demolition received a buff like 2 seconds ago. That's like saying you don't understand why no one uses Ethereal even though it just received major buffs and was total cheeks before that.

I'm still not sold on the Demolition hype (I think people just don't know what to do about it yet), but I've been told it's extremely good now, so we'll see.

It received buffs like 2 seconds ago but it's already clear that she has better damage and better wakeup at least.

 

[C88 Zombieekiler]

Its all about demo

 

[Orbit Aquary]

I feel like Special Forces is her strongest variation. The drone can be called in safely in so many instances so that's not a problem. She can do one of her 50/50s and get 35+ damage from it, if the opponent blocks, just cancel into the tracking projectile and you're good. Plus she gets even more mixup options with the low kamikaze and overhead laser. Only problem with this variation from my experience is that it's tough in certain match ups.

Demolition is really good, I mean, with three bombs and and and X-ray, you get 69% damage midscreen, 74% in the corner. Great comeback factor. She gets 40+ damage with three bombs midscreen and in the corner. But when you're out of grenades, you're in big trouble :/ That's why I feel like Covert Ops is stronger than demolition... she always has her military stance and she still gets high meterless damage.

 

[Tony at Home]

It doesn't make sense to call out her MS~4 as weak because it's "interruptible". Why would anyone who reads that MS~4 is coming decide to go for an interrupt instead of block and literally have all freaking day to punish it because it's hella unsafe? Yeah, it can be interrupted, but it's redundent to point that out as a weakness. It's like saying "It's negative on block and unsafe!"

Anyway, alot of the strength of Covert Ops is that her 3-way mixup doesn't come from strings, but a special that can be canceled out of strings. Yes, it has holes, but Sonya can control when and where those holes will appear. Let them try to armor through the end of a string only to go b1~MS4 instead of straight to b14. Let them think they can exploit b332's weaknesses, then b3~MS~Grab them.

It's not productive to think of Covert Ops MX mixups in the same way you would think traditional strings are mixups. They are entirely separate entities that work differently. Strings mixups aren't as good because they go from point A to point B, and any holes or weakness between those points can be exploited consistently. Cancellable special mixups allow that trip from point A to point B to go in any number of directions instead. Any attempt to exploit a weakness needs to assume that weakness will even be there, and that Sonya's not going for something else.

Covert Ops will seem weak as people adapt to her flow-chart mixups. We will once again see how much of a solid and powerful variation she is when we counter-adapt by becoming more unpredictable with Military Stance.




.... oh, and corner game

 

[BillStickers]

It received buffs like 2 seconds ago but it's already clear that she has better damage and better wakeup at least.

That's a very shallow way to determine how "good" a character is.

 

[errormacro7]

That's a very shallow way to determine how "good" a character is.

"It received buffs like 2 seconds ago but it's already clear that she has better damage and better wakeup at least than CO."

Demolition has the highest meterless damage of all variations and she can reload her grenades safely anywhere.

 

[Dedlock]

Also, as someone who has studied the character extensively and plays against her every week you will inevitably lose rounds and even matches simply because you guessed wrong. That tends to make people angry hence why they call her braindead.

Ummm isn't that the whole point of a fighting game guessing what your opponent will do?

I mean if people are complaining that Sonya can choose to hit low or OH then would they prefer everybody play in the same way, so as to be able to predict the whole battle before a fights starts and win every match.

There is nothing unfair about Sonya covert ops if they are upset they'll need to get better at blocking her strings and punishing her moves. her only unfair tool was the whiffed drop kick's advantageous recovery frame and that was taken away from her.

I always mix up my games, whether I'm tossing rings from a distance, risking punishment of whiffed/ blocked drop kick's and coming in For the attack.

 

[errormacro7]

try alot of luck, as it stands in its current form, I cannot see covert ops winning any major, it lacks damage, safety, zoning and specials.

Well, come to think of it, you don't have to excel at everything to be able to win a major. REO and Crawlingshadow won ESL with CO Sonya once and I see CO Sonyas placing top 8 at tournaments consistently enough.

 

[Zoidberg747]

Ummm isn't that the whole point of a fighting game guessing what your opponent will do?

I mean if people are complaining that Sonya can choose to hit low or OH then would they prefer everybody play in the same way, so as to be able to predict the whole battle before a fights starts and win every match.

There is nothing unfair about Sonya covert ops if they are upset they'll need to get better at blocking her strings and punishing her moves. her only unfair tool was the whiffed drop kick's advantageous recovery frame and that was taken away from her.

I always mix up my games, whether I'm tossing rings from a distance, risking punishment of whiffed/ blocked drop kick's and coming in For the attack.

Its not the same thing. Against pressure characters you at least know where their holes are and where the best place is to try and poke out. Against zoning characters you know if they screw up you can go in, etc. But against characters like CO Sonya, you just have to guess high or low, sometimes twice in a row. Its very exhausting and very annoying to fight against, which is why people get mad when they play her. Its also the reason why she will never be bad, because all it takes is for your opponent to guess wrong 2-3 times and they lose the round.