Question - Lackey What "is" Lackey?

[Wigy]

I don't entirely agree. He still has jailing pressure and a combo ender that restands for more pressure. Also forceballs are far from the weakest of zoning tools.

He can jail f3 into 1 but you have 2 frames to jail which is really tricky to get consistently and then what do you get? Some 11 staggers maybe. Thats about it. His d1 d3 are well below average for rushdown and his fastest move is 9 frame high. His forceballs, hes spending a bar for +4 where all he can do is f3. Theres many non rushdown characters who get better pressure for a bar (kitana tremor etc)

His wakeuo game is also below average.

Liu kang is infinitely better

Anyways dont wana take this off topic.

 

[CrazyFingers]

He can jail f3 into 1 but you have 2 frames to jail which is really tricky to get consistently and then what do you get? Some 11 staggers maybe. Thats about it. His d1 d3 are well below average for rushdown and his fastest move is 9 frame high. His forceballs, hes spending a bar for +4 where all he can do is f3. Theres many non rushdown characters who get better pressure for a bar (kitana tremor etc)

His wakeuo game is also below average.

Liu kang is infinitely better

Anyways dont wana take this off topic.

Oh wow I think JC is just a little better than people give him credit but now that you mention it Liu Kang is just so much better at doing what he does it's laughable.

 

[Blewdew]

as @Asodimazze said this variation became fucking useless. there is literally nothing that he can do better than average at best. all lackey mains do yourself a favor and switch to ruthless or a completly different character. imo he is a contender of being bottom 1 in the current game (bottom 5 at best)

 

[CrazyFingers]

as @Asodimazze said this variation became fucking useless. there is literally nothing that he can do better than average at best. all lackey mains do yourself a favor and switch to ruthless or a completly different character. imo he is a contender of being bottom 1 in the current game (bottom 5 at best)

Yea seriously Ruthless just does the stuff Lackey wishes it could do meterlessly. *smh*

 

[Kamikaze_Highlander]

Liu kang is infinitely better

Yea I'll edit the OP

 

[CrazyFingers]

Like I've never dropped a character because of how bad they are (and I played on release Jason and nothing but on release Jason for the longest time) but legit I dropped lackey after patch because why the hell would I want to play him when Commando does the grappling better, Butcher mixes better, Pretty Lady can zone while he can't and Killer's setplay is 10x better than Lackey could ever wish to be.

 

[Blewdew]

Like I've never dropped a character because of how bad they are (and I played on release Jason and nothing but on release Jason for the longest time) but legit I dropped lackey after patch because why the hell would I want to play him when Commando does the grappling better, Butcher mixes better, Pretty Lady can zone while he can't and Killer's setplay is 10x better than Lackey could ever wish to be.

tbh I don't like how ferra torr feels in general in the new meta (ruthless is still good but not being able to pngc when you run just a little bit before is anoying especially for a character with bad mobility, vicious still is overshined by ruthless but does a solid job though) but lackey is a whole new level. It's just sad.

 

[joeldm]

@Asodimazze said it all. But I say a little more: RIP Lackey.

 

[Kamikaze_Highlander]

@Asodimazze said it all. But I say a little more: RIP Lackey.

I don't think he's dead per se. But I think the only guaranteed victory is when facing a very inexperienced player.

 

[Cooljaxx]

Lackey "is" trash W/O db2 armor . Useless compared to goro who is lackey on roids

 

[GLoRToR]

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/lackey
/thread

 

[STRYKIE]

Posting just to confirm that Lackey's EX DP has always been -7 on block and subject to multiple failed attempts by NRS at posting it's correct frame data in the move list.

 

[Wetdoba]

Lackey is variationless Goro with no projectile, no flying unblockable, no armor into full combo for 2 bars, no safe special, no footsies, no plus frames, no anti air, and slower movement.

Aka, completely useless gutter trash and the worst excuse for a big body design ever

 

[Sunny_D]

Okay seems i forgot some of his nerfs my bad.

Armored launchers arent TERRIBLE, like i understand taking a majority out but some variations could be the armored revearsal variations. Have Tors normal toryuken safe and his ex toryuken a armored launcher but unsafe. It will bring his mind game back. That mixed with the "torvex" which isnt THAT bad with the new armor nerfs to the cast. With these he will be fine.

 

[Sunny_D]

And also reduce the distance he sends the opponent after a command grab so he can have better oki and id say hes perfect and fills a niche for certain matchups the other two dont.

 

[Kamikaze_Highlander]

And also reduce the distance he sends the opponent after a command grab so he can have better oki and id say hes perfect and fills a niche for certain matchups the other two dont.

Make dbf1 similar to EX animation except instead of throwing them away after he smashes then on the ground he just leaves them and backs off. EX dbf1 can have the throw as its a good positioning tool.

 

[Gengar]

He's not an 'in your face grappler' because as soon as you land that grab midscreen you are no longer in their face, even right in the corner there is a lot of pushback that leaves Torr outside of any normal range.

The throw has always put him at optimal range to throw again, being outside of normal range protects him from people poking him out. the command grab in the corner has always been a good tool, dont try to downplay it just cuz you arent right on top of them.

 

[Kamikaze_Highlander]

The throw has always put him at optimal range to throw again, being outside of normal range protects him from people poking him out. the command grab in the corner has always been a good tool, dont try to downplay it just cuz you arent right on top of them.

uh what? his throw leaves them close but not the command grab. And like I said even in the corner it has pushback that removes him from optimal range.

 

[dennycascade]

Current Lackey is basically just collateral damage from the universal armored launcher nerf. He really took one for the team, being sacrificed so we wouldn't have to deal with shit like EX tail flip or EX spin. At Lackey's peak (MKXL) he played his game around armor mindgames and command grabs, very similar to Goro. Very safe pressure and the threat of that 45%, "-9" on block armored launcher to keep the opponent afraid to press buttons up close. He could be very scary in your face, but was mostly overshadowed by Goro, since Goro played the same game but with more plus frames, better staggers, advancing mids, faster command grab with much better hit advantage (so he can keep himself in your face), a safe meterless special and a truly safe on block armored launcher. Goro did everything Lackey did, except better, and that's why I played Dragon Fangs over Lackey. So then NRS decided to make it a rule that no one gets 1 bar armored launchers anymore, and balanced the cast around that. Goro lost his 1 bar safe armored launcher but in exchange got completely overhauled. EX punchwalk was redesigned, his normals were improved, he got huge buffs to his neutral/zoning game, and gained a variationless +10 EX special move. When you look at the patch notes you can tell NRS really took their time balancing him around the new meta and made sure to keep his core gameplan intact: Command grabs and armor. Now when you look at Lackey's patch notes, you'll notice he got literally one change.

• Ferra/Torr (Lackey) - Torr Up no longer has armor

Yep. Half of lackey's gameplan gone right there in one line, and no compensation. They didn't even get the name "Torr Smash" right, that's how little they care. He used to open you up by using safe pressure strings to make you mess up and get caught by a devastating armored launcher. Now he has to work his way in, go for his mid and be 0 on block at best. Then what do you have to respect? At best you get checked by a d1, at worst you get grabbed and thrown full screen to begin zoning him out again. Compare that to pre-patch, when he could hit you with an armored launcher twice in one round and take 90% of your lifebar. Lackey just has nothing for the opponent to respect anymore. This character is not going to mix you to death, his overhead is fully reactable and his command grab leaves the opponent in an advantageous situation. Even if they left him alone completely, he would have fallen on the tier list a bit due to MKX's new meta of neutral play, zoning, and safe get-off-me reversals with two hits of armor. The patch was obviously rushed out and Lackey got screwed worse than any other variation in the game. It's like when CSZ got "deleted" except twice as bad.

TL;DR NRS forgot to balance Lackey and as a result made him the new F-Tier. Just imagine day 1 Goro except with no armor on ex punch walk (slightly exaggerating but that's basically the situation here)

 

[Tweedy]

I want to pocket Lackey for goofs, since it's clearly the worst variation in the game imo.

 

[dennycascade]

EX torryuken has always been really -8 on block (Goro reversal command grab punishes), but slightly safer depending on your opponent's height because it connects at a later active frame in the second punch. That's why shorter characters like kano and mileena can't punish with their 8 frame reversals. That's at least my theory after testing many different characters, I was confused as to why tremor's 7f f1 (pre-patch) could punish but shinnok's f4 couldn't. None of that matters anyway because over half the cast can just block low and make the second hit whiff for a full combo punish.

 

[Gengar]

uh what? his throw leaves them close but not the command grab. And like I said even in the corner it has pushback that removes him from optimal range.

I am not talking about his throw, neither were you. you are referring to his command grap, which midscreen does put them away from you. but in the corner youre at the optimal range to command grab again. You do not have to move at all, just do the command grab again.

command grab in the corner is good. the push back you are complaining about is a good thing, not a bad thing. you are in perfect range to command grab again with those huge long ass arms, the opponent is at a terrible range to hit you out of the throw

 

[Kamikaze_Highlander]

I am not talking about his throw, neither were you. you are referring to his command grap, which midscreen does put them away from you. but in the corner youre at the optimal range to command grab again. You do not have to move at all, just do the command grab again.

command grab in the corner is good. the push back you are complaining about is a good thing, not a bad thing. you are in perfect range to command grab again with those huge long ass arms, the opponent is at a terrible range to hit you out of the throw

Well YOU said throw. So yes in fact you were talking about 'throw', that's why I mentioned it.

Just tested it and yes you are right about the corner pushback, I always thought it was just outside grabs range, looks that way.

 

[Jaku2011]

Should've just made it a 2 bar launcher like they did with other characters.

 

[CrazyFingers]

To answer the title, in short, you call him trash.