Match-up Discussion Wake Up Punishment

[HGTV Soapboxfan]

One of shazam's main strength's is that after a hard knowckdown, his opponent must wake up out of a HM follow up. So I thought it would be a good idea to come up with ways to universally punish characters wake up attacks. What we could do is use this thread to discuss and try things out, then once we have decided on the best ways to punish a characters wake up options, we can put that in the matchup thread. This will help organize things. I will start.

Aquaman:
A meaty torpedo will beat all of his wake up attacks. It can then be MB to restart the setup if it hits, or it will whiff and allow a full combo punish.

Trident Rush: The torpedo will whiff, and you can full combo aquaman with dash up fwd22.

Trident Scoop: The torpedo will whiff, and you can full combo with b2 HM

From the Deep: The torpedo will hit, and can be MB to reset the situation. Your follow up HM will also beat this, so you do not have to worry about it at all.

Trident Throw: The torpedo will hit, and can be MB to reset the situation. Your follow up HM will also beat this.

Water Shield: The torpedo will go through the shield, could be punished by the MB burst. Follow up HM will whiff and can only be punished by MB burst.

Atlantean Rage (Super) : Torpedo and HM will be hit.

Overall guessing game: 50/50 disregarding super

 

[HGTV Soapboxfan]

Mikemetroid
TKT ZigZag
Heroic_Legacy
killa_solid

 

[ZigZag]

Sounds like a good idea to me, I'll get into punishing some characters wake ups Sometime soon ^_^

Thanks for the tag!

 

[Mikemetroid]

dash back ~> psycho crussher

 

[HGTV Soapboxfan]

dash back ~> psycho crussher

I wish it was that simple.

 

[ZigZag]

Flash​

Lightening Charge​

AT will phase through LC and Leave players at full screen giving shazam advantage to throw projectiles.​

If Blocked you Have enough Frame advantage to go into HM.​

​

Lightening Kick​

Can be torpedoed & MB for reset possibilities.​

​

​

Speed Dodge (No Idea why people would on wake up but for the sake of covering it all)​

Can't be torpedoed Can dash in and HM.​

​

Sonic Pound​

Can be punished with B23.​

​

Flying Uppercut​

You can walk backwards and HM or 112 Torpedo on whiff.​

*You could throw Bolt of Zues but I wouldn't recommend it*​

​

​

Nightwing​

​

Ground Spark.​

Can dash in & HM. Can Torpedo. Can B23. Can Ji2 F22 *Full combo*​

​

Escrima Fury.​

Can only be punished by throwing a Bolt of Zues.​

​

Flip Kick.​

Cannot be punished by anything.​

​

Scatter Bomb​

Can punish with Dash in HM & Torpedo​

​

Flying Grayson.​

Can't be punished by HM, Can be punished by AT *Time is fairly strict*​

​

​

Staff Spin.​

Can only be punished By Bolt of Zues​

​

Ground Blast.​

Can be punished by AT with an early read.​

Can be punished by B23 with less of an early read.​

​

 

[ZigZag]

I'm doing them in order of the roster btw.

 

[Shawi]

Ive done loads of these btw. And zigzag many of yours are wrong. You can backdash a LOT of your punishers.

Flash

Speed Dodge
Universal Punish
Lightning Charge
HM -> Full Combo
Lightning Kick*
Can’t Punish
Sonic Pound
Can’t Punish
Flying Uppercut
HM -> Full Combo
Running Man Stance
All Options = HM -> Full Combo
Super
HM -> Full Combo

Nightwing

WingDing
AT
GroundSpark
Can’t Punish
Escrima Fury
HM -> Full Combo
Flip Kick*
Can’t Punish
Scatter Bomb
Can’t Punish
Ground Blast
Can’t Punish
Flying Greyson
Can’t Punish
Staff Spin
Can’t Punish
Super
HM -> Full Combo

Batman

Straight Grapple
HM -> Full Combo
Sky Grapple
(Depending of whiff distance, AT or HM)
Up Batarang
(Depending of whiff distance, AT or HM)
Cape Parry
HM -> Full Combo
Batarang
HM -> Full Combo
Slide Kick
HM -> Full Combo

Joker

Crowbar
HM -> Full Combo
Laughing Gas
Can’t Punish
Rollin Laughing Gas
HM -> Full Combo
BANG!
Can’t Punish
Acid Blossom
Can’t Punish
Super
HM -> Full Combo

Harley

Pop Pop
Perfect Timing HM -> Full Combo
Line of Fire
Can’t Punish
Heads Up
Can’t Punish
Oopsy Daisy
AT
Cupcake Bomb
HM -> Full Combo (if in range, otherwise can’t punish)
Play Doctor
Be careful, wait for the move to fully whiff before using HM -> Full Combo. Otherwise the HM will whiff during invincibility frames.
Tantrum -> Roll
AT
Tantrum -> Cartwheel
Can’t Punish
Tantrum -> Bullet Frenzy
AT
Tantrum -> Hand Stand
Can’t Punish* Weird One
Super
HM -> Full Combo

Grundy

Cleaver Spin
HM -> Full Combo
Walking Corpse
NA
Grave Rot
NA
Dead Air
HM -> Full Combo
Swamp Hands
Can’t Punish
To The Grave
NA
Super
NA
NB - Best to let grundy whiff and then punish as normal with HM or AT.


I've been doing these for a while but wanted to finish it up before posting. The gist is that MANY MANY CHARACTERS CAN FREELY wakeup without risk of punishment. This then means that Shazam needs to anticipate not just a wakeup, but WHICH wakeup they will do. Some will require whiff punishes and others block punishes.

I tested - backdashing, jumping, ducking, and blocking for each punisher. I tested AT, b2, HM, dashxxHM, AC, 112, 22 and f223.

Please can you guys make sure to correct anything I may have wrong ;-)

Tom Brady - We will work on this for now as a community to get a full list - what are your thoughts?

 

[HGTV Soapboxfan]

The goal is to find options that beat all of their wakeups, to minimize the guessing we have to do. It will take some creativity. If w are lucky we can simply many characters to the 50 50 of wake up or no, and even a 33 33 33 would be pretty good.

 

[Shawi]

The goal is to find options that beat all of their wakeups, to minimize the guessing we have to do. It will take some creativity. If w are lucky we can simply many characters to the 50 50 of wake up or no, and even a 33 33 33 would be pretty good.

To be honest most of the cast will have a wakeup that we can't punish. The whole "stop thinking shazam is bad" tech just flies out the window completely. It is more of an eye opener tbh

 

[HGTV Soapboxfan]

To be honest most of the cast will have a wakeup that we can't punish. The whole "stop thinking shazam is bad" tech just flies out the window completely. It is more of an eye opener tbh

How do you know? How many hours have you put into testing? I bet we can get most characters down to at least only two options.

 

[HGTV Soapboxfan]

Killer Frost
Your main option here is a jump back 2.

Black ice (slide) : Full combo punished by jump back 2. This beats your HM.

Frostbite (parry) : jump back 2 is safe. The HM follow up will hit.

Daggers: Punishes jump back. The HM follow up will hit.

Iceberg: Jump back is safe but does not punish. The HM follow up will hit.

Flash freeze (command grab) : Punished by jump back 2 off of sweep but not AC, beats HM. Off of AC you can neutral jump, but this will not punish slide.

Super: jump back makes it whiff, safe, beats HM.

Overall guessing game: 50/ 50 off of sweep, 33/33/33 off of AC.

 

[booivi]

Ive done loads of these btw. And zigzag many of yours are wrong. You can backdash a LOT of your punishers.


Batman

Straight Grapple
HM -> Full Combo
Sky Grapple
(Depending of whiff distance, AT or HM)
Up Batarang
(Depending of whiff distance, AT or HM)
Cape Parry
HM -> Full Combo
Batarang
HM -> Full Combo
Slide Kick
HM -> Full Combo



Tom Brady - We will work on this for now as a community to get a full list - what are your thoughts?

So you're saying HM punishes all of these on block or whiff? also, does this work only against their wakeup attacks or anytime.

 

[Shawi]

How do you know? How many hours have you put into testing? I bet we can get most characters down to at least only two options.

Lol it's not about how many hours, but rather exhausting all of the options.

 

[Shawi]

So you're saying HM punishes all of these on block or whiff? also, does this work only against their wakeup attacks or anytime.

Anytime. Try them and let me know what you find,

 

[Heroic_Legacy]

Don't put Aquaman in a situation to wakeup attack imo. The risk reward is very not in your favor, 40% for guessing wrong on your end and 31% for same meter if he doesn't wake up. Torpedo crossup shenanigans doesnt work well since he has a 236 and a 214 move on the same button so he can OS a wakeup attack to hit you no matter what.

Instead of wakeup punishment just make it a general punishment guide since wakeup doesn't change how punishable something is. I have my own list but I'm a bit lazy to throw it on here.

 

[HGTV Soapboxfan]

Lol it's not about how many hours, but rather exhausting all of the options.

So you knew that you could torpedo through aquamans invincible wake ups and full punish? and that after a sweep you can jump back to punish KFs slide or Command grab? GTFO

 

[HGTV Soapboxfan]

Don't put Aquaman in a situation to wakeup attack imo. The risk reward is very not in your favor, 40% for guessing wrong on your end and 31% for same meter if he doesn't wake up. Torpedo crossup shenanigans doesnt work well since he has a 236 and a 214 move on the same button so he can OS a wakeup attack to hit you no matter what.

Instead of wakeup punishment just make it a general punishment guide since wakeup doesn't change how punishable something is. I have my own list but I'm a bit lazy to throw it on here.

If you guess right that aquaman is going to wake up at all you can do a fwd22 reset after the torpedo whiffs for I believe 47 percent, or b2 for idk how much damage, or the ability to reset the situation. And in this case the OS on wake up is irrelevent because this punishes both options. All this thread is for is to simplify his vortex off of hard knockdowns, a general punishment thread would be too broad. All this deals with is a specific situation.

 

[Heroic_Legacy]

Did you set the CPU to do wakeup attacks? If so then all this data is wrong lol.

 

[HGTV Soapboxfan]

Cyborg: It is really easy, block is your punisher.

Power Fist is his only wakeup that beats HM. Block it and punish for full combo. All other options will be hit by HM.

 

[HGTV Soapboxfan]

Did you set the CPU to do wakeup attacks? If so then all this data is wrong lol.

Say what? lol

 

[Heroic_Legacy]

CPU can do wakeup attacks way earlier than humans can so your data might be compromised unless you recorded shazam doing the setup and then went through and did all characters wakeup attacks manually.

 

[HGTV Soapboxfan]

CPU can do wakeup attacks way earlier than humans can so your data might be compromised unless you recorded shazam doing the setup and then went through and did all characters wakeup attacks manually.

God damnit NRS. I just retested aquaman with that method, and it seems to still work. This is so frustrating though haha. Thanks for the info though, saved me a lot of time. Hopefully my other setups have not been compromised.

 

[Shawi]

So you knew that you could torpedo through aquamans invincible wake ups and full punish? and that after a sweep you can jump back to punish KFs slide or Command grab? GTFO

Seriously, how old are you? Are you like 15? You really sound like a good for nothing piece of shit with that attitude - I'm trying to help the Shazam community and all you can do is come here and think you are the bees knees.

Almost every character can jump back to punish KF slide, KH Cat has been doing it since day 1. The entire cast can cross up aqua man (with good timing) to avoid MANY of his wake-ups - didn't see that written down in your aquaman post so I suggest you put some more of your 'hours' in.

 

[HGTV Soapboxfan]

Seriously, how old are you? Are you like 15? You really sound like a good for nothing piece of shit with that attitude - I'm trying to help the Shazam community and all you can do is come here and think you are the bees knees.

Almost every character can jump back to punish KF slide, KH Cat has been doing it since day 1. The entire cast can cross up aqua man (with good timing) to avoid MANY of his wake-ups - didn't see that written down in your aquaman post so I suggest you put some more of your 'hours' in.

First of all, I do apologize for the condescending tone yesterday. Your right, there is no need to be a dick. Anyway about wakeups. The point of this list is not to come up with every possible option to beat a wake-up. It is to come up with one solution per character that beats all of their wake ups and options. So yes while you can cross up Aquaman, he could reverse input scoop to punish I believe.or he could just get up and d2 aa. I'll take your word on kfs slide, cuz I have been doing it too, it's just yesterday that I realize it also punished the command grab. And the whole point of this is to simplify shazam hard knockdown vortex.