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Match-Up Discussion - Dragon Naginata Vak's Dragon Naginata MU Chart *Updated*

x TeeJay o

x TeeJay o

Canary Cry Gapless Pressure
Vak Phoenix said:
Two of my friends play fisticuffs from day one, i know what i am talking about, just because tanya has good range look at the frames please, check the whiff recovery, block advantage, hit adv etc.
i am getting tired of arguing with people without brains on this website
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Dude i have been trying to explain that to the Alien cry babies. It's hopless...
 
OutworldKeith

OutworldKeith

Noob
Vak Phoenix said:

​
Alien
  • Acidic 4/6
  • Konjurer 4/6
  • Tarkatan 4/6
Bo Rai Cho
  • Drunken Master 5/5
  • Dragons Breath 4/6
  • Bartitsu 4/6
Cassie Cage
  • Brawler 4/6
  • Hollywood 3/7
  • Spec Ops 4/6
D'Vorah
  • Brood Mother 4/6
  • Swarm Queen 4/6
  • Venomous 4/6
Ermac
  • Mystic 3/7
  • Master Of Souls 3/7
  • Spectral 4/6
Erron Black
  • Gunslinger 5/5
  • Outlaw 5/5
  • Marksman 4/6
Ferra/Torr
  • Lackey 4/6
  • Ruthless 3/7
  • Vicious 4/6
Goro
  • Dragon Fangs 4/6
  • Kuatan Warrior 4/6
  • Tigrar Fury 4/6
Jacqui
  • Full Auto 4/6
  • Shotgun 5/5
  • High Tech 6/4
Jason
  • Slasher 4/6
  • Relentless 4/6
  • Unstoppable 4/6
Jax
  • Pumped Up 4/6
  • Heavy Weapons 3/7
  • Wrestler 3/7
Johnny Cage
  • A-List 4/6
  • Fisticuffs 4/6
  • Stunt Double 4/6
Kano
  • Cybernetic 3/7
  • Cutthroat 3/7
  • Commando 4/6
Kenshi
  • Balanced 4/6
  • Possessed 5/5
  • Kenjutsu 4/6
Kitana
  • Mournful 3/7
  • Royal Storm 4/6
  • Assassin 3/7
Ko'Tal Kahn
  • Sun God 4/6
  • Blood God 5/5
  • War God 4/6
Kung Jin
  • Ancestral 5/5
  • Shaolin 5/5
  • Bojutsu 4/6
Kung Lao
  • Hat Trick 3/7
  • Buzzsaw 3/7
  • Tempest 3/7
Leatherface
  • Pretty Lady 3/7
  • Killer 4/6
  • Butcher N/A
Liu Kang
  • Dualist 5/5
  • Flamefist 6/4
  • Dragons Fire 5/5
Mileena
  • Ravenous 3/7
  • Piercing 3/7 Possibly 2/8
  • Ethereal 3/7
Predator
  • Hish-Qu-Ten 3/7
  • Hunter 5/5
  • Warrior N/A
Quan Chi
  • Summoner 4/6
  • Sorcerer 4/6
  • Warlock 4/6
Raiden
  • Master Of Storms 4/6
  • Thunder God 4/6
  • Displacer 4/6
Reptile
  • Deceptive 6/4
  • Noxious 7/3
  • Nimble 7/3
Scorpion
  • Hellfire 4/6
  • Ninjitsu 4/6 Possibly 3/7
  • Inferno 4/6
Shinnok
  • Imposter 3/7 Possibly 2/8
  • Bone Shaper 3/7
  • Necromancer 3/7
Sonya Blade
  • Special Forces 4/6
  • Covert Ops 5/5
  • Demolition 3/7
Sub-Zero
  • Cryomancer 6/4
  • Grandmaster 5/5 Possibly 6/4
  • Unbreakable 5/5
Takeda
  • Ronin 4/6
  • Shirai Ryu 5/5
  • Lasher 3/7
Tanya
  • Kobu Jutsu 6/4
  • Pyromancer 5/5
  • Dragon Naginata N/A
Tremor
  • Crystalline 5/5
  • Metallic 4/6
  • Aftershock 5/5 Possibly 6/4
Triborg
  • Cyber Sub-Zero 4/6
  • Cyrax 5/5
  • Sektor 4/6
  • Smoke 3/7
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Now this is interesting. Ninjutsu 7-3 & Inferno 6-4? Care to explain
 
ienjoywinning

ienjoywinning

Noob
Vak Phoenix said:
Two of my friends play fisticuffs from day one, i know what i am talking about, just because tanya has good range look at the frames please, check the whiff recovery, block advantage, hit adv etc.
i am getting tired of arguing with people without brains on this website.

any time i try to go in the air and jump towards him, i get anti aired by the rifle swing move, also the ex shots keep me in check too. It is one of those weird matchups where its health lead depended.
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Its not a 4-6 imo more like a 5-5 you shoudn't get aa'd by a 29 frame move
 
Vak Phoenix

Vak Phoenix

Noob
ienjoywinning said:
Its not a 4-6 imo more like a 5-5 you shoudn't get aa'd by a 29 frame move
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when tanya jumps from full screen teleports towards you, after you throw a sand grenade or the rifle shot, you have enough time to anti air her when she comes out of the teleport, she is culnerable and wont be able to do anything from air. but that move is not the reason why she loses, its that if he gets the health lead he can play lame and beat her, while shes taking risks... does that make sense?
OutworldKeith said:
Now this is interesting. Ninjutsu 7-3 & Inferno 6-4? Care to explain
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tanya cannot punish f2 from ninjitsu, only with a drill and i have to be frame perfect, a smart tanya would not risk punishing f2 with drill anyway. Well he out footsies her, and shuts down her air game by b2 and that ji3 he doesnt have to risk anything in the match and ninjitsu controls the pace of the match very well. inferno is the same story but more zoning invovled, and b2 and f2 removed, cant get in the air due to air minion and ji3.
 
SaSSolino

SaSSolino

Soul Stealing Loyalist
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SaSSolino

SaSSolino

Soul Stealing Loyalist
Vak Phoenix said:
Yeah i dont know the match up that well with balanced and naginata, but i see that his tools cancel out hers and beat hers.
Her main shtick in this variation is air game, with a gimmicky pogo stance, i go up in the air... I get antiaired by oh slash, rising karma and what not, he conditions and punishes her wayy harder than she can punish him. Her best combo start f2 doesnt punish him, just because i dont know the matchup doesnt mean that i dont know what that character has to bring to the table.
I truly hope that you are trolling and not being serious about me being the reason why people are leaving this website Lol!
And i... Havent done anything to this community? You amuse me.
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You admit that you don't know a MU you gave numbers on, in your MU chart thread? dude, I don't know... I'm confused. but damn, gotta love TYM shenannigans!
 
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Vak Phoenix

Vak Phoenix

Noob
SaSSolino said:
You admit that you don't know a MU you gave numbers on, in your MU chart thread? dude I don't know... I'm confused. but damn, gotta love TYM shenannigans!
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i dont know the matchup that well, if you are going to read, read the whole thing, he abolishes her air game which is the key thing to this variation. i cannot get in the air. why is it so hard for you people to just think.
you also said the entire thing is exaggeration, if so please teach me how to play dragon naginata, how every single match up is with her.
you do not need to grind certain matches to know how it goes, hawkgirl vs zod for example after few games you understood that hawkgirl gets mopped. stop acting like you know this variation or have played against it at all.
and keep editing your post hence the fact that you are fishing for likes. i have made myself very clear about balanced vs naginata. from this point on, posts like yours will be immediately reported from this thread, and i will not reply to any of them that asks for why certain match up works that way. since none of you are trying to provide logical answer, besides few people in the thread i do not find a need to be wasting any more time on people like you. it may make me seem like an asshole but i do not care, i have tried to be logical and open minded and in return all i got was meaningless responses. go on and believe that i "assume" number in this match up chart, that is why i assumed butchers and warriors. One last point i want to make, you may believe all you want, come up with a tech, guide, breakthrough better than mine that proves me that i am wrong 100%, until then i have no reason to respond to you.
thank you.
 
SaSSolino

SaSSolino

Soul Stealing Loyalist
Vak Phoenix said:
i dont know the matchup that well, if you are going to read, read the whole thing, he abolishes her air game which is the key thing to this variation. i cannot get in the air. why is it so hard for you people to just think.
you also said the entire thing is exaggeration, if so please teach me how to play dragon naginata, how every single match up is with her.
you do not need to grind certain matches to know how it goes, hawkgirl vs zod for example after few games you understood that hawkgirl gets mopped. stop acting like you know this variation or have played against it at all.
and keep editing your post hence the fact that you are fishing for likes. i have made myself very clear about balanced vs naginata. from this point on, posts like yours will be immediately reported from this thread, and i will not reply to any of them that asks for why certain match up works that way. since none of you are trying to provide logical answer, besides few people in the thread i do not find a need to be wasting any more time on people like you. it may make me seem like an asshole but i do not care, i have tried to be logical and open minded and in return all i got was meaningless responses. go on and believe that i "assume" number in this match up chart, that is why i assumed butchers and warriors. One last point i want to make, you may believe all you want, come up with a tech, guide, breakthrough better than mine that proves me that i am wrong 100%, until then i have no reason to respond to you.
thank you.
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I did read the whole thing (but I'm not doing so this time), but dude you can't just give MU number because you've watched the frame data or something, come on! there are so many things you could miss, so many things you could not understand until you try them on your skin... do I really need to say this?! this is beyond ridiculous.

EDIT: uh and I keep editing the posts to adjust my grammar... but ye, it's because I know that if I hit all my commas right, I get some mad likes man!

ANOTHER EDIT: and you report my answers because I disagree with you, while you trash talking the fisticuffs dude is fine?! you should be way more humble dude!

ps: ye, I lied, I'm actually reading the whole thing...
 
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Espio

Espio

Kokomo
Can people stop throwing around the "I've mained the character since day one" card? It does not prove anything. Some people don't get their character even if they used them since the beginning and it takes someone who is newer to do the proper homework or plays to the character's strengths best.


I would like to address a couple points. Tanya being able to armor out of Speedbag pressure is a pretty unreasonable reason to contribute to the match up being not in his favor when:

A. He can just stagger speedbag and block.

B. She is full combo punishable

C. He can put her in a standing reset and pressure her for being wrong.


Characters that have projectiles that can hit at certain arcs (see Kitana and yes, Cage too) can definitely check her air mobility really good and considering the special arc his fireballs have and the position Naginata Tanya likes to be in, this is also definitely relevant. Clipping a character like hers wings is a big deal since she doesn't have an insane plethora of things going for her.

She has no full screen presence, which means the only way she can even hurt you is by coming in on you. You get a life lead and chip buff up and have a good time. You beat her full screen. When she's up close you have the edge too.

The range argument is pretty bad because Tanya's long ranged back 2 for example even when spaced perfectly is punishable by shadow kick every time on block. Back 1 starts as a high on neutral crouch and advances her forward so you can down 4 right under and then start your shenanigans.


This is not to say she cannot fight Fisticuffs, but anyone who isn't being insanely biased can see that his options versus her are good. Johnny's core tools alone are very good against her, without factoring in extra throw damage, extra projectile chip and extra normal chip.


Pretty much everyone can interrupt pogo stance too, it's actually pretty funny.

Vak is not known to downplay. He is very keen on his characters being good when they are good. He also very adamant when his character is bad.


Lots of people patronizingly telling people to hit the lab, yet not doing so huh.
 
ismael4790

ismael4790

Stay focused or get Caged
Espio said:
Can people stop throwing around the "I've mained the character since day one" card? It does not prove anything. Some people don't get their character even if they used them since the beginning and it takes someone who is newer to do the proper homework or plays to the character's strengths best.


I would like to address a couple points. Tanya being able to armor out of Speedbag pressure is a pretty unreasonable reason to contribute to the match up being not in his favor when:

A. He can just stagger speedbag and block.

B. She is full combo punishable

C. He can put her in a standing reset and pressure her for being wrong.


Characters that have projectiles that can hit at certain arcs (see Kitana and yes, Cage too) can definitely check her air mobility really good and considering the special arc his fireballs have and the position Naginata Tanya likes to be in, this is also definitely relevant. Clipping a character like hers wings is a big deal since she doesn't have an insane plethora of things going for her.

She has no full screen presence, which means the only way she can even hurt you is by coming in on you. You get a life lead and chip buff up and have a good time. You beat her full screen. When she's up close you have the edge too.

The range argument is pretty bad because Tanya's long ranged back 2 for example even when spaced perfectly is punishable by shadow kick every time on block. Back 1 starts as a high on neutral crouch and advances her forward so you can down 4 right under and then start your shenanigans.


This is not to say she cannot fight Fisticuffs, but anyone who isn't being insanely biased can see that his options versus her are good. Johnny's core tools alone are very good against her, without factoring in extra throw damage, extra projectile chip and extra normal chip.


Pretty much everyone can interrupt pogo stance too, it's actually pretty funny.

Vak is not known to downplay. He is very keen on his characters being good when they are good. He also very adamant when his character is bad.


Lots of people patronizingly telling people to hit the lab, yet not doing so huh.
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Playing a character since day one allows you to see his weaknesses, where others can clearly overestimate him for example giving him the same mu numbers as A-List, which is never the case. I was told fisticuffs was still good for months since june 2015 nerf, until people realized that the nerf was actually an overnerf and that he is currently trash.

You can stagger, yes, but the followups after that are not great since his famous nerf, that's why fisticuffs has no real pressure. You see speedbag stop? Just poke or backdash. Even with a bad reaction you will get out with his current frames.

The fact that a character can armor or not through speedbag's gap is a huge thing, believe me. It changes how much they have to respect it. If Cage has to be afraid of doing more than two reps, his "pressure" gets severely hurted. Also if the opponent has fast armor or not changes things. That's why Tremor still suffers vs fisticuffs.

I didn't say he is in the bad situation vs her, but the matchup is not a 6-4 for him.

But anyway, thanks for the observations, at least you made an effort to explain the situation.
 
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Awkward Sloth

Awkward Sloth

Lamest Harley, still better sloth than Jer
Espio said:
Can people stop throwing around the "I've mained the character since day one" card? It does not prove anything. Some people don't get their character even if they used them since the beginning and it takes someone who is newer to do the proper homework or plays to the character's strengths best.


I would like to address a couple points. Tanya being able to armor out of Speedbag pressure is a pretty unreasonable reason to contribute to the match up being not in his favor when:

A. He can just stagger speedbag and block.

B. She is full combo punishable

C. He can put her in a standing reset and pressure her for being wrong.


Characters that have projectiles that can hit at certain arcs (see Kitana and yes, Cage too) can definitely check her air mobility really good and considering the special arc his fireballs have and the position Naginata Tanya likes to be in, this is also definitely relevant. Clipping a character like hers wings is a big deal since she doesn't have an insane plethora of things going for her.

She has no full screen presence, which means the only way she can even hurt you is by coming in on you. You get a life lead and chip buff up and have a good time. You beat her full screen. When she's up close you have the edge too.

The range argument is pretty bad because Tanya's long ranged back 2 for example even when spaced perfectly is punishable by shadow kick every time on block. Back 1 starts as a high on neutral crouch and advances her forward so you can down 4 right under and then start your shenanigans.


This is not to say she cannot fight Fisticuffs, but anyone who isn't being insanely biased can see that his options versus her are good. Johnny's core tools alone are very good against her, without factoring in extra throw damage, extra projectile chip and extra normal chip.


Pretty much everyone can interrupt pogo stance too, it's actually pretty funny.

Vak is not known to downplay. He is very keen on his characters being good when they are good. He also very adamant when his character is bad.


Lots of people patronizingly telling people to hit the lab, yet not doing so huh.
Click to expand...
Nah man I play Mileena and Kano day 9 and you're wrong cause I think my character is worse so I downplay your down play.

Vak is bad at getting his point across though. Please speak for him at all future discussions.
 
SaSSolino

SaSSolino

Soul Stealing Loyalist
Bruno-NeoSpace said:
I have seen that thread and I disagree A LOT with that MU chart. Dualist wins Swarm Queen? Ruthless? Is even against Jax? Wins Cutthroat? Even against Piercing? NO WAY! Even Dragon's Fire and Flame Fist loses all these matchups.
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I meant his match against MrAquarium, not his MU chart, witch I haven't even seen. regardless, I think Dualist is really good.
 
The Celebrity

The Celebrity

Professional Googler
25 3-7 matchups
AND
2 2-8 matchups

I honestly want to believe this all because I know Dragon Naginata has problems, but I just don't see it. Base Tanya with air + ground 50/50s and decent strings in B3, 34 and 112 alone make her at least semi-effective to keep matchups above a 2-8.

Keep in mind everyone, a 2-8 matchup is Zod vs Lex. If you didn't play Injustice, or weren't knowledgable of that matchup, go back and watch it. 1-9 is literally the worst a matchup can possibly be, and that should mean that you win by literally picking the opposing character.

I've seen a few tier lists lately with these awfully bad matchups and I just don't really get it.
 
THTB

THTB

Arez | Booya | Riu48 - Rest Easy, Friends
I don't see how Deceptive is a better matchup than Nimble/Noxious, when its advantage likely wouldn't make the matchup any better.
 
SaSSolino

SaSSolino

Soul Stealing Loyalist
Bruno-NeoSpace said:
Why do you think Dualist is really good?
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stance switch is great for pressure, f213xxStanceSwitch is even + for no good reason and mixed with b1 is insane. ex light projectile is + a bazillion and the dark has good setups. dualist's corner game is insane and his only weakness is keep away I think.
 
El_Rubio

El_Rubio

Noob
Thanks for sharing! I love DN but I don´t know how to use her, can you link me any guide or games? I would love to watch them. Thanks!
 
Bruno-NeoSpace

Bruno-NeoSpace

They see me zonin', they hatin'
SaSSolino said:
stance switch is great for pressure, f213xxStanceSwitch is even + for no good reason and mixed with b1 is insane. ex light projectile is + a bazillion and the dark has good setups. dualist's corner game is insane and his only weakness is keep away I think.
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F213 into SS is +5, that's the best meterless pressure toll of Dualist and mixing it with b1 is not insane because most characters can backdash it or you can just block, then Liu Kang will be -3 or if Liu Kang tries to do DB2, you can punish the gap. So, Liu Kang does F213 into SS into B1,2 , and that's it, his pressure is over.

EX light projectile is +15 but it has a lot of pushback. If you do it in the midscreen like f4,4 into EX light projectile, you will spend 1 bar to do just 18%. If you do it in the corner, most times you will spend 2 bars to do around 38% because you will spend 1 EX light projectile to be +15, then you will run because of the pushback (so you won't be +15), then you will hit your oponent with f4,4 and then you do the second EX light projectile.

His orb setups are a joke because they explode in some cenarios, they start very far from Liu Kang and the regular orb, low orb and air orb (air orb is useless) has small hurtbox, so most setups won't work sometimes. To do his setups combos, most times you will need to do the 1,1,3 string that is a bad string - HIGH,HIGH,OVERHEAD that has a gap.

His zoning is slow and his healing is one of the worst moves in the game.
 
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