TYM Community Tier List Representative Voting Thread - Kenshi

[BigMilk]

sorry for double post but my phone dont let me edit or delete. but the tier list is pretty accurate with minor changes and MUs could be fixed a bit but still good

 

[Ashenar]

At the highest level kabal played by reo that mu is 6-4 kabal. IMO

 

[Pig Of The Hut]

At the highest level kabal played by reo that mu is 6-4 kabal. IMO

ask reo his thoughts on that

 

[Tolkeen]

ask reo his thoughts on that

I'm not sure if asking the person that plays the alleged upper hand character if they have the upper hand is fair. Who's going to say, yeah I blow this character up, when if they lose they now have to admit that they got outplayed? Whatever gets agreed upon will win out I guess, but I still can't see it.

 

[Under_The_Mayo]

ask reo his thoughts on that

I heard something about him saying that match is in Kenshi`s favor. I`m still laughing.

 

[SwiftTomHanks]

I heard something about him saying that match is in Kenshi`s favor. I`m still laughing.

 

[THTB]

Okay, that pic is hilarious.

 

[Pig Of The Hut]

That pic is amazing

 

[PEGGY]

I heard something about him saying that match is in Kenshi`s favor. I`m still laughing.

kenshi is probably the most under rated character outside of quan chi. no one can play footsies vs kenshi, kabal cannot beat him just by zoning but at the same time its pretty hard for kabal to get in on kenshi as well. also, if kenshi gets kabal to the wall, kabal is in trouble.

 

[Under_The_Mayo]

kenshi is probably the most under rated character outside of quan chi. no one can play footsies vs kenshi, kabal cannot beat him just by zoning but at the same time its pretty hard for kabal to get in on kenshi as well. also, if kenshi gets kabal to the wall, kabal is in trouble.

Sorry but you don't know what you're talking about. First, Kenshi isn't underrated. I don't know anyone who doesn't consider him a very strong character. You can totally play footsies against Kenshi because pushing you away with Spirit Charge is always a big risk because if you jump him he eats a full combo.

And yes, Kabal can absolutely kill Kenshi with just zoning. Gas ball reflection is unreliable. Saw's can't be reflected. Flurry trades for 4% vs 9% in Kabal's favor. The dash negates the flurries and slashes because he literally moves right through them. If Kabal simply does gas ball, gas ball, saw, gas ball, dash cancel saw, retreat gas ball gas ball, dash in for a mix up (ending with safe overhead or saw with can be punished only with spirit charge WHICH PUSHES HIM BACK TO ZONING RANGE) and then retreat back into gasball saw. And there's jack shit Kenshi can do about it, without hitting a lucky flurry or slash, which I can't stress enough..Kabal's dash moves straight through them.

Once Kabal backs himself into a corner, he's built enough meter to break once you finally him, and then he gets to dash out of the corner for free. If you simply try to contain him with SC pressure and normals, he's eventually gonna guess right and combo you and then get out of the corner and go back to spamming. So you may take some damage off him in the corner but not for long. And the entire chase TO the corner results in you losing life either in chip or in horrible trades which send him even further from you.

Kabal loses to Kenshi under 2 circumstances. 1: He doesn't realize he can just zone him and he starts getting to greedy upclose and makes himself vulnerable to Kenshi's close strengths. or 2: Kenshi gets him to the corner losing little life and get's a couple of lucky guessing for big damage. Other than that, every single projectile trade is in Kabal's favor. And him being able to dash THROUGH Kenshi's specials gives him the freedom to dash about the screen whenever you attempt any zoning and you get spun. I don't want to hear anymore about this being an even match up. It's not right to be telling all these Kenshi players that they just "don't get it" (I'm not saying that it was you specifically saying that). If Kabal's have trouble against Kenshi, it is only because they don't exploit the true weakness of the character and that's his mobility. Coupled with the fact that the dash negates half his specials entirely. I also don't want to hear much more about "locking kabal down in the corner". That's a joke. Yeah, sometimes you'll get it when you're guessing correctly. But Spirit Charge pressure and etc is a very dangerous game against Kabal being able to EX Dash, and even cancel it if you're blocking to go into his own pressure and get out pretty easily. This isn't Smoke we're talking about here. It's Kabal.

 

[Under_The_Mayo]

At the highest level kabal played by reo that mu is 6-4 kabal. IMO

I don't think high level is even necessary for it. Just a spamming kabal from full screen is enough to cause problems due to Kenshi's lack of mobility. When he comes in, he doesn't need to do cancel pressure like he normally would out of respect for the Spirit Charge. He can just swoop in, do a block string into a single dash cancel and then into low or overhead, knowing he can't be punished by more than a spirit charge, which puts him back at zoning distance. There's seriously no risk for him.

 

[Blackula]

I couldn't resist reposting this. It was just too funny. For those who saw my match with Scoot MaGee, you will understand this picture.

 

[THTB]

Sorry but you don't know what you're talking about. First, Kenshi isn't underrated. I don't know anyone who doesn't consider him a very strong character. You can totally play footsies against Kenshi because pushing you away with Spirit Charge is always a big risk because if you jump him he eats a full combo.

I don't think you actually realize how hard it actually is to play footsies vs Kenshi.

Spirit charge being jumpable is the EXACT SAME CASE Ermac has, although a bit harder to exploit against Ermac. But that's the thing, spirit charge controls the ground at its particular range REALLY well and is safer on block, and forces out anticipation jumps, which are blown up on reaction by Kenshi's really solid AA game. Kenshi also possesses the best walk in the game...NOBODY in this game is capable of forcing whiffs by walking as well as Kenshi can. No one. Try and force whiffed JPs from sweep distance by walking with anyone else. Try it. You can't. Add on really good range on his normals that aren't particularly slow, the fact that his d1 and d3 are arguably the safest d1 and d3 on block due to spirit charge, nice range on d4, and so much other shit, Kenshi already has one of the best footsies games out there. All that is good EXCLUDING spirit charge, which makes it really difficult to play footsies vs him.

You really need to understand that better, because it really doesn't seem like you do. If I can take a Kenshi that is really basically only an hour old, and go against pretty solid players well just on pure fundamentals, that should say a lot about things. You guys still don't realize how powerful this character's footsies game is, and how much a lot of the cast CAN'T play it vs him. He shuts it down hard. It really is his strongest aspect.

 

[Under_The_Mayo]

I don't think you actually realize how hard it actually is to play footsies vs Kenshi.

Spirit charge being jumpable is the EXACT SAME CASE Ermac has, although a bit harder to exploit against Ermac. But that's the thing, spirit charge controls the ground at its particular range REALLY well and is safer on block, and forces out anticipation jumps, which are blown up on reaction by Kenshi's really solid AA game. Kenshi also possesses the best walk in the game...NOBODY in this game is capable of forcing whiffs by walking as well as Kenshi can. No one. Try and force whiffed JPs from sweep distance by walking with anyone else. Try it. You can't. Add on really good range on his normals that aren't particularly slow, the fact that his d1 and d3 are arguably the safest d1 and d3 on block due to spirit charge, nice range on d4, and so much other shit, Kenshi already has one of the best footsies games out there. All that is good EXCLUDING spirit charge, which makes it really difficult to play footsies vs him.

You really need to understand that better, because it really doesn't seem like you do. If I can take a Kenshi that is really basically only an hour old, and go against pretty solid players well just on pure fundamentals, that should say a lot about things. You guys still don't realize how powerful this character's footsies game is, and how much a lot of the cast CAN'T play it vs him. He shuts it down hard. It really is his strongest aspect.

I agree with all of this. Kenshi has incredible footsie tools. And yeah just the SC alone makes it harder to play footsies against him. But again, it is a very risky move in a way because once opponents start to get any kind of feel for how you play, you'll start jumping you successfully more and more, so eventually you have to become a bit more conservative in it. His walk is great, his pokes are all safe with SC. Yeah lots of characters don't have an easy time against him. I never said they did. I'm only specifically talking about the Kabal matchup. I'm not saying something needs to change. Almost every character has a couple of bad matchups. I'm not complaining about it, just explaining why its bad and why it's a bad idea to use him in that fight.

 

[THTB]

I agree with all of this. Kenshi has incredible footsie tools. And yeah just the SC alone makes it harder to play footsies against him. But again, it is a very risky move in a way because once opponents start to get any kind of feel for how you play, you'll start jumping you successfully more and more, so eventually you have to become a bit more conservative in it. His walk is great, his pokes are all safe with SC. Yeah lots of characters don't have an easy time against him. I never said they did. I'm only specifically talking about the Kabal matchup. I'm not saying something needs to change. Almost every character has a couple of bad matchups. I'm not complaining about it, just explaining why its bad and why it's a bad idea to use him in that fight.

Here's some food for thought:

CDjr, at SBV, approached the Jax-Kabal matchup using basically just dash xx d1 to get in, using the d1 to catch him during iaGBs. Standard maneuver every character can do. Mobility only came into effect when Jax was EX dash punching, really, and he didn't always have to. This caused problems for REO because CDjr was still getting in without using meter, and forcing REO to the corner, where he had to deal with Jax's corner game by guessing his way out, or burning a lot of meter. This worked...to the point where REO wasn't exactly winning.

There's a reason why REO and I both have the same opinion on this matchup. CDjr proved that Kabal isn't impossible to get in on without teleports, and that continuously zoning with the character can hurt you more than it helps. Kabal has to be wary of Kenshi's corner game, and Kenshi does have the tools to make him think twice about dashing in (did you completely forget about spirit charge?). Maybe you need to relearn how to play the matchup.

 

[Ashenar]

the only issue I have with kenshi aside from the large hitbox is his jip...I know it's not a main tool for him considering his ground game but whoever gave him those properties on his jip really hindered this character in certain ways.

 

[KingHippo]

If you simply try to contain him with SC pressure and normals, he's eventually gonna guess right and combo you and then get out of the corner and go back to spamming.

Yeah no.

 

[Under_The_Mayo]

Here's some food for thought:

Kabal has to be wary of Kenshi's corner game, and Kenshi does have the tools to make him think twice about dashing in (did you completely forget about spirit charge?). Maybe you need to relearn how to play the matchup.

I wouldn`t compare Jax`s ability to get in with Kenshi`s. Kenshi has a way bigger hitbox than Jax does. And the EX dash punch takes a huge 17% damage and doesn`t throw Kabal away to full screen all over again. The Spirit Charge does, that`s the problem, and that`s only 9% damage. And of course SCs can make Kabal weary of dashing. Disregarding the fact that he doesn`t need to dash in in the first place, this becomes very easily baited. That`s why I said all Kabal has to do is gasball-saw WITH dash cancels into retreating. Kenshi will never have a way to reliably intercept a true approaching dash if he keeps faking him out by cancelling midscreen and retreating. Then he can cancel to bait a spirit charge and then commit to a second dash to go right through the whiffed one.

I`m not saying this is unwinnable. Of course you can win. But the list of advantages in Kabal`s favor far outnumber Kenshi`s. That`s the point. You guys can say we`re wrong if you want. But once Kabal just exploits the weaknesses with the right combination of zoning and dashes and disciplined close pressure, he takes the match.

 

[Deity]

I couldn't resist reposting this. It was just too funny. For those who saw my match with Scoot MaGee, you will understand this picture.

LOL NETHER REEEAAAAAALM

 

[Blackula]

I have to agree with Mayo on this.

 

[KingHippo]

Here's the matchup in a nutshell:

Kenshi has the fastest walkspeed in the game easily as well as a move that lowers his hitbox obscenely (D3). Kabal, at full screen, is throwing gasballs while you are constantly walking forward and easily dodging every single one. He may throw a saw, but that's pretty reactable. Eventually, Kabal will reach the corner. You guys play Kenshi, you know the drill. In the corner, Kenshi will take all your options away.

Now it's easy to say that Kabal could guess right and get out. Of course it is. However, the fact that he HAS TO guess his way out in the first place is pretty bad. Plus, his biggest ways to build meter (NDC and IAGb) are magnificently hindered by a) his back being in the corner and b) Kenshi's armor kind of always putting him on edge. No character in the game has a move that controls space as effectively and as safely as spirit charge, so Kabal has to deal with that as well at the mid range if he realizes IAGbs aren't doing it.

If you are standing full screen, you are losing the match. If you are not pressing forward and walking under gasballs, you are losing the match. You have to move foward and force Kabal's back into the corner, where he really has to guess to get out. How is that not a winning matchup, when your character can stop the most effective ways for the other character to win?

6-4 Kenshi.

 

[xxteefxx]

alright ! awsm talk guys...though not the appropriate thread. so this is meant for Character/ people voting i presume? please take the discussion to the MU thread.

King Hippo: i liked ur post tell u said "You guys play Kenshi, you know the drill. In the corner, Kenshi will take all your options away."
it seems u know kenshi very well, yet the follow after on ur post proved u have little idea.....Elaborate on HOW exactly is kenshi a threat to kabal in corner in such case , or forever hold ur peace
kabal got meter = Threat for kenshi to go freely due to his EX dash.

the MU is 5.5 - 4.5 Kabal favor (worst case scenario, can go 5 - 5 in my opinion). lets say it that way, Reo was the only kabal who was able to beat my kenshi from all the kabals i've ever played so far. MU aint impossible but at the same time it's NEVER kenshi favor

" No character in the game has a move that controls space as effectively and as safely as spirit charge"
completely not correct...

PS: if u wanted to reply, please direct it to the MU thread guys!! ty

as for Mayo...i agree with Mayo.... and i kinda agree with THTB on some stuff....though Mayo's is 100% correct.
THTB , ur dealing SC as if it's the SAFEST move on earth....it's not! thats only toward EX SC...not regular. Kabal has meter, in corner Kabal can escape EASILY!! making it tougher on kenshi due to mind game aspect.
first off against kabal, cr+3 is everything!! the bug were u can evade kabals dash from anywhere in screen due to Kenshi's hurtbox properties and cr+3 advantage, makes it so annoying for kabal to get in PERIOD! resorting to the use of EX dash from sweep distance, which is still subject to the dash bug due to kenshi's hurtbox on cr+3.

1-cr+3 stuffs Dash if used correctly from any distance
2- Close range cr+3 can escape both EX dash and regular dahs constantly
3- cr+3 is a perfect tool to use to get in on kabal...and under his gas blasts as well as able to do cr+3 and block the SAW too.

trust me, once u use it correctly...kabal will think MORE than twice on gettin in.

why this matchup slight Kabal favor?
-the run away game is HIS!! making the use of anything from far away beside cr+3 closing in and armor = useless
* also considering the fact of reflect bugs*
- Close game is YET! subject to gambling....Kabal having armor nullyfying Kenshi's Frame traps(Period)
-Corner game, kabal has Armor, kenshi's OTG/ Corner game is subject to Armor penetration unless u will start gambling and mind game ...in that case, both of kabal and kenshi can do that

 

[THTB]

Charge definitely isn't the safest move out there, nor do I claim it to be so. What it is, though, is a move that does what Ermac's TKP does...severely limits an opponent's ground game in its particular range. It does it a lot more safely due to longer active frames, faster startup, and by not being as much of a disadvantage on block. The threat of that is very powerful and opens up Kenshi's game immensely, obviously.

The thing about getting out of the corner is that Kabal is still gambling almost half life to do so, and even using the options he has aside from breaker-NDC isn't fool-proof because of Kenshi's armor. Not to mention, for Kabal to get out the corner via breaker, he has to wait for an air juggle, and Kenshi can simply negate that by ending his combos with charge. It's definitely not easy for Kabal.

I don't see how it could ever be in Kabal's favor. He has to play in a manner where he's in areas he doesn't want to be.

 

[Pig Of The Hut]

This is why i dont post in here

lol

 

[KingHippo]

Very helpful to the discussion.

I guess I'll use this opportunity to throw my name in the hat for this.