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Top Marvel player shows serious interest in "Injustice"?

Flagg

Flagg

Noob
gamemk said:
I'm confused when MK9 players say MK9 has footsies. How do you guys justify saying that? Are you just counting the fact that it contains low attacks that can be used to defend low and bait? If so, I wouldn't consider that footsies. I don't believe MK9 has footsies because MK9 doesn't have traditional zoning. I say this because of the free roaming combo system that behaves like 3d fighting games.

MK9 is the only 2d fighting game that lets you advance with your target strings. For example, you can't perform anyone's dial combo in MK3 or UMK3 without first making contact with your opponent. The same is true in a game like Third Strike (example: Yun's target of FP, MP, B+FP), and the same is true in SF4 (examples: Yun's 3s combo, and all of Ibuki's target strings). By contrast, I can do Smoke's BnB combo whenever, wherever, and in a game like VF5 I can do combos anytime, too, like Kage's {P,P,P,B+P,K}. The combos in 3d games can advance you from anywhere on the stage, and the same is true of MK9. That heavily affects zoning, which is not really relevant in 3d games(See Seth Killian's domination 101 category on SRK).

Footsies are an extension of zoning, and what makes them so crucial in SF is the threat of the strong AA, like DP, Flash Kick, lariat, etc....The fear of jumping makes the game become ground based, so when footsies are used as close strategy they require fast crouching normals, which no MK game has ever had with the exception of MK2 Baraka who has one of the fastest crouching normals, fast LP, which can be cancelled into Blade Fury. MK1-UMK3 all have fast standing normals which function like SF's crouching footsies, but ST. LP doesn't function the same way in MK9, and even though those games had fast normals--without trading projectiles it's very hard to have any jockeying for space, without the person losing on life eating more and more damage.

Also, Injustice doesn't have proximity guard, so even though it's a back to block game it shouldn't be that difficult for MK9 players to adapt imo. If Injustice had proximity guard then there might be a problem, because then you would have to rely heavily on zoning knowledge, which really has only been extremely strong in MK2. Zoning and spacing are not the same thing. MK9 has spacing, but because there's so much free movement, and very few strong AA options it makes footsies and zoning less integral to being good at the game.
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Wow, I didn't realise that but yeah, MK is the only game where you can use Target combos to advance. I cant imagine what this game would be like if you had to be touching your opponent to use a target combo.

You say Injustice doesn't have proximity guard....so do you only go into block stance when something like a projectile is right near your hitbox, but you can essentially walkbackwards still, baiting "slow oncoming" attacks?
 
Temp

Temp

Salmon. Otters. The Bringer.
TargetAudience said:
jumping is faster than pokes... anti air r ass in mk... i guess they r right you people never play other fighters besides mk.... go play sf4 and tell me how u like jumping around all day like in mk9.
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I do play SF4. Locally, I went up against Jewelman in winners finals a few months ago. You're not going to tell me that Rose's down+Fierce anti-air compares to Smoke's standing 2 anti-air. Not with a straight face at least.
 
SLy

SLy

Noob
TargetAudience said:
jumping is faster than pokes... anti air r ass in mk... i guess they r right you people never play other fighters besides mk.... go play sf4 and tell me how u like jumping around all day like in mk9.
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That's a reason why many players didn't want to convert. Jumping is for the most part free in this game. It takes away from the neutral game..
 
PaletteSwap

PaletteSwap

Misanthropiate
Temp said:
I do play SF4. Locally, I went up against Jewelman in winners finals a few months ago. You're not going to tell me that Rose's down+Fierce anti-air compares to Smoke's standing 2 anti-air. Not with a straight face at least.
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True dat.
 
E

eskuAdradit0

"Thanks" button abuser.
Sao87 said:
Not really true. These guys have been breaking down new games for years and know where to start. Our community is full of fan boys that really havent played something competitively before because mk9 was the first legit mk game. It took us almost a year to get frame data which still isnt accurate because of game design flaws and im willing to bet90% of the people on this site still dont know how to read frame data. Where as their community youre laughed at for still not understanding such basic information.
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Just to elaborate, you guys can check out @Belial's guide. It was so ahead of its time because he clearly knew what he should have been looking for.
 
Skkra

Skkra

PSN: Skkra
Flagg said:
You say Injustice doesn't have proximity guard....so do you only go into block stance when something like a projectile is right near your hitbox, but you can essentially walkbackwards still, baiting "slow oncoming" attacks?
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In SF4, your character will block when an attack/projectile gets very near to them. If you're holding back, you'll stop walking back and start blocking once the attack is close.

In Marvel, you will NOT block until the moment an attack makes contact. Until then, you're free to move in any way you'd like. I believe Injustice will play like this.
 
WakeUp DP

WakeUp DP

GT MK OshTekk.
Temp said:
I do play SF4. Locally, I went up against Jewelman in winners finals a few months ago. You're not going to tell me that Rose's down+Fierce anti-air compares to Smoke's standing 2 anti-air. Not with a straight face at least.
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Well low tiers will be low tiers... go play and keep jumping at a high level ryu, guile, sagat etc and tell me how you do.
 
D

davidovitch

In Europe!
TrickyLizard said:
Well low tiers will be low tiers... go play and keep jumping at a high level ryu, guile, sagat etc and tell me how you do.
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The exact same thing can be said for jumping at Kung Lao, JC, Jax and many others in MK9.

I don't understand the hostility in discussing these topics, really. Yes, footsies, spacing, zoning and jumping all work different from one game to the next. That is a good thing, IMO, otherwise all fighting games would be very similar and that would be boring.

gamemk said:
I'm confused when MK9 players say MK9 has footsies. How do you guys justify saying that?
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I'm confused when you say MK9 does not. How do you define 'footsies'?

gamemk said:
From IPlaywinner:
"Footsies is a term used to refer to the technique of mobilizing yourself around the stage at the optimal range of your pokes/just outside the optimal range of your opponent's pokes. "
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Call me crazy but I think I see a lot of this moving around the edge of your optimal range while trying to stay out of the opponent's in high level MK9 gameplay. Granted in for example SFIV this 'footsie' gameplay of throwing out pokes can sometimes last ten seconds or more which you don't see in MK9 but that's just a difference in playing styles between the games, not a reason to judge MK9 as somehow being a worse fighting game (which I am not accusing you of doing, btw.)

gamemk said:
That optimal range is more difficult to maintain in MK9 because, as I said, target strings advance characters on the 2d plane, and there is no move fast enough to counter the string once it's in play, except a breaker.
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You make it sound as though 'target' strings are a safe and free way to move forward in MK9. That is not true at all:
-Any 'target' string or 'dail-a-string' in MK can be interrupted if the first hit whiffs by a fast move in between two active parts of the target string or by an armored move or even by jumping and attacking the opponent from the air or after landing
-If the target strings hits your block there are even many cases where they can still be interrupted by fast normals or armored moves
-If the target string does hit you then, yeah, breaker is your only way out. But how is that different from being hit by a poke in SFIV which is then confirmed into a combo?

Then about some of your examples from the CDjr vs Dizzy match (@gamemk):

gamemk said:
When are they using footsies in this? I'm not going to post the Valle Daigo SCR match because I don't want the SF MK complaints. Also, they never use throw once. CD jr. is forced to backdash only because there are no trades, and because he doesn't want Cage on his ass with the MK9 Cage stuff. There's an occasional low poke, but how is that footsies? They're not jockeying for space. Dizzy can apply pressure because there's no DP threat. CD has to run away with Lao, and then he has to switch to Kabal altogether, so he can have some breathing room. I don't see the footsies.
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-I think JC can be compared with Zangief in that you really don't want to be next to him and will generally be trying to run away. Once he is next to you chances are you will get fucked up. It's a valid character design IMO which leads to most characters trying to run away from JC. The 'footsies' would consist of trying to stay out of f3 range and then punishing JC when he whiffs it (although they went a little overboard with how good the f3 is making it hard to avoid and punish)
-I agree some of the high profile MK9 players don't use throws enough. However others do use throws more often (I like 16 bit as an example), and there are actually a couple of throws in the match video you posted as well
-"Dizzy applies pressure because there's no DP threat" Actually KL has a spin that can lead to more damage than a DP, and can be used to interrupt JC pressure at certain points. Of course much like a DP the spin is unsafe and can be baited

Srry for the long post and it's also a bit off-topic. If you want to reply maybe we can move this to PM's. I'm not trying to burn anyone btw, just having a respectful discussion :D
 
Temp

Temp

Salmon. Otters. The Bringer.
TrickyLizard said:
Well low tiers will be low tiers... go play and keep jumping at a high level ryu, guile, sagat etc and tell me how you do.
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Guile's flash kick does not do 30% damage. Sagat and Ryu's dragon punches do not do 30% UNLESS you have ultra, and that's a very big "UNLESS". Sub-Zero does not need to waste 3 bars of meter to get a 24% combo off his anti-air.

I'm trying to be respectful here, but I get a bit agitated when people put words in my mouth. I never said it was okay to jump around like a dumbass in SF4. I said anti-airs are better in mk9, AND THEY ARE.
 
WakeUp DP

WakeUp DP

GT MK OshTekk.
Temp said:
Guile's flash kick does not do 30% damage. Sagat and Ryu's dragon punches do not do 30% UNLESS you have ultra, and that's a very big "UNLESS". Sub-Zero does not need to waste 3 bars of meter to get a 24% combo off his anti-air.

I'm trying to be respectful here, but I get a bit agitated when people put words in my mouth. I never said it was okay to jump around like a dumbass in SF4. I said anti-airs are better in mk9, AND THEY ARE.
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Thats like your opinion bro. Still anti airs are better in sf4.
 
WakeUp DP

WakeUp DP

GT MK OshTekk.
Temp said:
Could you elaborate at least? I can't tell if I'm bring trolled or not. If you have an explanation, I'm ears.
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Mk9 Kl to anti airs spin and standing 2. spin easy to bait and punish for more than 30% combo, standing 2 is ok but gets stuffed most of times specially online.

Sf4 ryu has about 7 diff anti airs dp, c. fierce punch, standing high kick, standing low kick etc etc, dp has invinsibility which means it never gets stuffed and most well place anti airs never will... unlike mk9 shitty anti airs etc etc etc
 
WakeUp DP

WakeUp DP

GT MK OshTekk.
Also all thoses moves r much much faster than mk9 special and normal moves.... again mk jumping is much faster tuan pokes so its harder to react to it.
 
PaletteSwap

PaletteSwap

Misanthropiate
This discussion is absolutely NOT about Injustice anymore. el oh el.

To clear up this AA argument, AA's in MK do more damage, and AA's in SF4 do less but have more variety and quicker startup frames.

2 completely different games. At this point, the argument is kinda like I like apples more than oranges.
 
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