Tier lists are full of nonsense

[Skedar70]

Kotaku just published an interesting article on Tier list and how they affect character development. I agree with this article. Tier list can influence character exploration as most people will just switch characters deemed low tier leaving them unexplored. An example that happened in our community recently was with Captain Cold (before the nerfs). Considered low tier CC was dropped by everyone and the few players he had were crying for buffs. It took the best player in the NRS scene to demonstrate that Captain Cold was fine and had great potential (he even got him nerfed lol). Another example I can add to this was Scarecrow. Scarecrow was considered low tier before Whiteboi.

I usually pick my mains before they are released and don't care much what tier they are. Eventually they start working out or if they really are lacking they receive some buff that makes them work.

Sometimes characters are actually not low tier they just lack representation or exploration.

Anyways its an interesting read for the community.

https://compete.kotaku.com/tier-lists-are-full-of-shit-1821401815

 

[Vengeance135]

But joker had a decent sized community for 4+ years before everyone quit on him because he is actually not that good. Can he get some buffs?

 

[Marlow]

I don't think Tier lists are completely worthless, but they defintely get more attention than they typically deserve.

 

[Espio]

As a Beetle and Vixen main, this article speaks to me on a deep level, great read!

 

[Undergroundepict]

For every player I know who quits a character because they are deemed to be low tier, I know another who picks up that character in order to prove everyone wrong.

I think Sonic Fox proving people wrong about Cold was just Sonic Fox being Sonic Fox and advancing the meta. There were plenty of people still trying to find something to do with the character; Fox simply had the better vision.

Tier list discusssions can actually be inherently valuable as it presents an opportunity for people to debate character tools. Thinking and having discussions in in this manner is nearly as important as playing.

 

[Kotal_Wannabe]

Captain cold was never top tier though or even especially good, didn't see anyone else getting siginifcant wins with him. Sonic can make almost any character work, and even then he was counterpicking.

 

[Protagonist_1]

Tier list discusssions can actually be inherently valuable as it presents an opportunity for people to debate character tools. Thinking and having discussions in in this manner is nearly as important as playing.

This isn't directed at you, but my issue with tier list and matchup numbers, is that although they do present opportunities for players to discuss matchups, they are discussed horribly. In all honesty, I feel matchup discussion should be first and foremost before any tier list or numbers are even presented.

I can go into any character forum on this site and would find little to almost no in depth discussion of character tools, strategies, etc. because most people are either too lazy to do it, or don't know how to argue. They also don't have the time, which is a legit argument, but have plenty of time arguing matchup numbers that have poor data to back it up. Then run to twitter groups when they get called out their shit lol.

 

[ABACABB]

Sonic only showed that CC was great in SOME matchups . He didnt win any tourney going all cold . He just was great vs chars without zoning .

Red hood - if sonic didnt used him he prob would not be in top 8 at any major and not considered top character . For red hood nerfs we can thx sonic too . I thnk it will be same story with manta if sonic keeps winning .

I think sonic could win a tourney going all joker if he wanted and rly focused on him and practiced . Does it prove that joker is not low tier ? No . Also why he would do that and make it harder for himself by picking weaker character if adam and others exists ?

 

[Undergroundepict]

This isn't directed at you, but my issue with tier list and matchup numbers, is that although they do present opportunities for players to discuss matchups, they are discussed horribly. In all honesty, I feel matchup discussion should be first and foremost before any tier list or numbers are even presented.

I can go into any character forum on this site and would find little to almost no in depth discussion of character tools, strategies, etc. because most people are either too lazy to do it, or don't know how to argue. They also don't have the time, which is a legit argument, but have plenty of time arguing matchup numbers that have poor data to back it up. Then run to twitter groups when they get called out their shit lol.

I understand where you are coming from, but I think that the low quality of discussion has much more to do with what has become of this website. All but a handful of the top players who used to post here with regularity have left as a result of perceived toxicity, which is a terrible (non)solution to the problem, which IMO was also significantly overblown, and in many instances the result of them getting a little bit too oversensitive over something some no-name poster with no actual connection to or knowledge of the community said about them, or getting upset when intermediate players (who by definiton are not as aware of what is and is not good, which is why they need better players to explain it to them) did not immediately recognize the value of some new setup or tech they contributed. Which ultimately set in motion a self-fulfilling prophecy.

There are still quite a few quality posters here, but the proportions have been diluted, which dilutes the quality of any discussion on this site.

 

[neveradestroyer]

Stop mentioning that dead character (Captain Cold). Last patch put it out of the game. He will likely don't get used by anyone ever again in tournaments. Thanks a lot NRS.

 

[Kotal_Wannabe]

Sonic only showed that CC was great in SOME matchups . He didnt win any tourney going all cold . He just was great vs chars without zoning .

Red hood - if sonic didnt used him he prob would not be in top 8 at any major and not considered top character . For red hood nerfs we can thx sonic too . I thnk it will be same story with manta if sonic keeps winning .

I think sonic could win a tourney going all joker if he wanted and rly focused on him and practiced . Does it prove that joker is not low tier ? No . Also why he would do that and make it harder for himself by picking weaker character if adam and others exists ?

So true, in fact sonic did play joker, like once against batman and won, so deprived the entire Joker community of buffs. As NRS said at the time "No changes he's a great character", yet buffed him last patch. He still sucks though. As for cold, they've done nerf after nerf yet barely touched catwoman and supergirl. Go figure....

 

[Vengeance135]

Sonic only showed that CC was great in SOME matchups . He didnt win any tourney going all cold . He just was great vs chars without zoning .

Red hood - if sonic didnt used him he prob would not be in top 8 at any major and not considered top character . For red hood nerfs we can thx sonic too . I thnk it will be same story with manta if sonic keeps winning .

I think sonic could win a tourney going all joker if he wanted and rly focused on him and practiced . Does it prove that joker is not low tier ? No . Also why he would do that and make it harder for himself by picking weaker character if adam and others exists ?

Sonic already touched on joker vs foreverking in a MU joker can manage (batman). Foreverking stated himself he didn't know the MU either so it already favored sonic fox. Sonic fox couldn't go through an entire tournament using only joker. As sonic fox stated himself, joker is bottom 5 in the game. Now let's remember sonic fox is known for trying to make characters work and does upplay. But for him to say that, mixed with an almost complete lack of representation of joker himself and most of the community abandoning him (except me and a few others) the character is pretty much done for.

Joker does much better in this game compared to the first injustice but he still sucks in comparison to others.

I agree with what @Protagonist_1 said though. People don't want to have in depth discussions, they would rather bicker. But on that note, tier lists and mu charts are the only way joker players can actually gain knowledge outside of the discord on this website. The joker community is mostly dead lol

 

[EntropicByDesign]

I understand where you are coming from, but I think that the low quality of discussion has much more to do with what has become of this website. All but a handful of the top players who used to post here with regularity have left as a result of perceived toxicity, which is a terrible (non)solution to the problem, which IMO was also significantly overblown, and in many instances the result of them getting a little bit too oversensitive over something some no-name poster with no actual connection to or knowledge of the community said about them, or getting upset when intermediate players (who by definiton are not as aware of what is and is not good, which is why they need better players to explain it to them) did not immediately recognize the value of some new setup or tech they contributed. Which ultimately set in motion a self-fulfilling prophecy.

There are still quite a few quality posters here, but the proportions have been diluted, which dilutes the quality of any discussion on this site.

I feel like this could not be more correct.

 

[trufenix]

Too many cooks in the kitchen, tier lists have not been of real community value in a decade.

 

[Juggs]

My general thoughts on tier lists. And this was 5 years ago I believe:

https://testyourmight.com/threads/tiers-are-unimportant.16176/

 

[VSC_Supreme]

A large part of your post is dedicated to players switching off/on to characters based on top players opinions which I believe should be it's own discussion entirely.

Everyone is in a rush to make a tier list because everyone wants to know who is "Good" and easy to win online with. Games are a lot more balanced and accessible these days so its unfortunate that "Bottom" tier still has such a negative connotation of "literally unplayable if you want to win" for some people.

 

[Marlow]

My general thoughts on tier lists. And this was 5 years ago I believe:

https://testyourmight.com/threads/tiers-are-unimportant.16176/

That's great, and basically applies as well today as it did 5 years ago.

 

[Marlow]

I understand where you are coming from, but I think that the low quality of discussion has much more to do with what has become of this website. All but a handful of the top players who used to post here with regularity have left as a result of perceived toxicity, which is a terrible (non)solution to the problem, which IMO was also significantly overblown, and in many instances the result of them getting a little bit too oversensitive over something some no-name poster with no actual connection to or knowledge of the community said about them, or getting upset when intermediate players (who by definiton are not as aware of what is and is not good, which is why they need better players to explain it to them) did not immediately recognize the value of some new setup or tech they contributed. Which ultimately set in motion a self-fulfilling prophecy.

There are still quite a few quality posters here, but the proportions have been diluted, which dilutes the quality of any discussion on this site.

I think Tier discussions can drive some players away though. When Injustice 2 first came out I was checking out Wonder Woman as a character to play, and in the General Discussions there were several players sharing good tech and good matchup advice. But they ended up getting drowned out by the people complaining about WW being low tier, or how her trait was garbage, and how she should be able to reflect projectiles with her parry. After awhile the good players stopped posting, likely because they were tired of dealing with Tier mongerers all the time.

 

[Eldriken]

I changed the title. No swearing or implications of swearing in the titles, please.

Other than that, carry on.

 

[PetulantWaste]

Bro we're a couple patches away from vanilla. There was some pretty dumb shit going on. Remember when Catwoman's jump 2 was even better? Remember 600+ Black Adam damage off every touch, Swampthing before a single buff, Joker before a single buff, Deadshot- 7-3ing half the cast while being potato as fuck to use essentially eliminating characters from tournament contention. Remember Superman doing even more damage. Cyborg got a new wake up and a 50/50 and he's still not overwhelmingly good. All the changes so far have been pretty spot on at bringing the balance closer except for the SG buffs imo. Currently there are some very high execution characters that people might agree haven't been explored enough but if you take someone with a simple kit like Green Lantern it's not gonna take 8 months of play to realize he's low tier or low mid tier. If the best players in the world are saying Grodds cancels are too damn hard maybe it's time to take a look at them.

 

[Dankster Morgan]

While there is certainly value in tier lists and some characters are certainly above others, I agree. Sub-Zero was written off as mediocre/bad early on and even though he has weaknesses, the character is very good imo and does what he was made to do very well. And Aquaman, my other character, was written off as dead after the patch, and definitely loses a lot of matchups, he still fits his niche and doesn’t the job he was designed for extremely well, making a pocket Aquaman a great asset.

 

[THTB]

Tier lists are pretty valuable...and at the same time, something you shouldn't treat as the holy bible.

They're only truly applicable when you're playing at the highest level with others and when everyone has an extremely deep understanding of the cast. And even then, a lot of the time, low tiers are functional simply because one specific aspect about them gives that potential for victory.

The more important piece of subjective data is the matchup chart that contributes to a tier list. That is important on a balancing perspective, and even that takes time to flesh out as new stuff gets discovered. And honestly, matchup charts STILL aren't done optimally, since weighted charts just don't get done.

 

[9_Lives]

I miss the idea in mk9 that the list would be made by running a massive ft10 gauntlet between all the best representatives of each character who would then post their scores and opinions to go with it to one conglomerate.

What happened to that? I thought that would be the best way because it would be the agreed upon opinions of the entire community all compiled in one place.

 

[Vengeance135]

While there is certainly value in tier lists and some characters are certainly above others, I agree. Sub-Zero was written off as mediocre/bad early on and even though he has weaknesses, the character is very good imo and does what he was made to do very well. And Aquaman, my other character, was written off as dead after the patch, and definitely loses a lot of matchups, he still fits his niche and doesn’t the job he was designed for extremely well, making a pocket Aquaman a great asset.

From a joker player to an aquaman player... Do you think joker beats aquaman? Not going to lie, I do lol

 

[Dankster Morgan]

From a joker player to an aquaman player... Do you think joker beats aquaman? Not going to lie, I do lol

Yes, Aquaman is still good though, but Joker completely controls the pace of the match and will be able to build bar and keep Aquaman from doing so, and Aquaman gets shredded in the corner.