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Question Throwing then (90's) and now!

RyuKazuya

RyuKazuya

Jesus is my Lord and Savior!
ILuvFightGames said:
Lol, zangief was the only one allowed to jab-throw because he was slow and didn't have a projectile and actually yes, ANY zangief player had a hard time against mostly any good player because the games were really unbalanced. I did however played a couple of zangief players who had enough skill to compete with the ryu's,ken's,sagat's and guiles back then.
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well ok i thought your rule applied to gief as well haha
 
Juxtapose

Juxtapose

Noob
Absolutely I remember this. Mortal Kombat and its sequels were huge in the greater Toronto area, and no throws and being permitted to throw your opponent if they threw you was absolutely a thing.

I recall this starting with Mortal Kombat, which was the first fighting game I really got into (Street Fighter II I played but it wasn't my thing). In Mortal Kombat II, this continued but I think that's when you could hold DB to stop throws in Versus, but not the AI. I actually remember that the AI being able to do "cheap" throws, as in the AI could actually throw you beyond the grab range of a human player, contributed to the "throws are cheap" belief and their being "banned."

This continued into Mortal Kombat 3, but ironically I don't recall a lot of people using Throws Disabled. I only toyed with Ultimate Mortal Kombat 3 and started getting out of the franchise at that time, so can't comment further.
 
SaltShaker

SaltShaker

In Zoning We Trust
Different responses in this thread. All I'll say is that the OP is 100% right and anyone who disagrees is likely under the age of 30. Not a knock on people's age, just that if you don't know what OP is talking about you likely aren't old enough to have played as a youth when throws were considered unfair and you had to give people their throw back. It definitely was a thing at one point.
 
marietta1200

marietta1200

Best Coast
Guile was a jab throw master in 1
SaltShaker said:
Different responses in this thread. All I'll say is that the OP is 100% right and anyone who disagrees is likely under the age of 30. Not a knock on people's age, just that if you don't know what OP is talking about you likely aren't old enough to have played as a youth when throws were considered unfair and you had to give people their throw back. It definitely was a thing at one point.
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This. ...It's not about your having all this frame knowledge and "there were ways to get around it." We're talking like 1991 here. No internet. Very small frame window between the normal and the throw. So a whole culture evolved around cheap throw tactics in early SF and MK. OLD SCHOOL, people.
 
Rabbit

Rabbit

thugs bunny
Tokido needs to hit the lab:DOGE

Throws in a lot of the early 90's fighters were pretty fucked up. Which was unfortunate because it lead some of my favorite games at the time (KI and Primal Rage) not having throws.

Some of the worse offenders I can think of at the moment is SF2WW and World Heros Perfect.
WW Street Fighter 2 there were no reversals, so unlike the other versions of SF2 you can't use invincible wakeups or mash counter throw.
World Heroes Perfect gives throw priority to the player in blockstun on top of that, throws having no startup :cool:.


I always laugh when I hear people complain about throwing in recent fighting games.
 
d3v

d3v

SRK
Throwing has been a staple of high level play ever since Street Fighter II. While you had some holdouts at certain arcades who had scrub rules, eventually, people were just forced to accept it once people started playing to win against players from other regions. Top players from that era like Tomo Ohira, Thomas Osaki, Seth Killian, etc. all used throws, especially when the first few tournaments started. Sure, they'd sometimes get in trouble in some arcades where people had scrub rules, but eventually, they won out because they were winning. Eventually, these same players who didn't think throwing was cheap, helped form the beginnings of today's FGC.

The issue here is that many folks only remember playing in arcades with scrub rules. But in the places where the seeds of todays FGC were being planted, throws were fair game.

tldr: throws were never cheap.
 
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Rip Torn

Rip Torn

ALL I HAVE IS THE GREEN.
d3v said:
Throwing has been a staple of high level play ever since Street Fighter II. While you had some holdouts at certain arcades who had scrub rules, eventually, people were just forced to accept it once people started playing to win against players from other regions. Top players from that era like Tomo Ohira, Thomas Osaki, Seth Killian, etc. all used throws, especially when the first few tournaments started. Sure, they'd sometimes get in trouble in some arcades where people had scrub rules, but eventually, they won out because they were winning. Eventually, these same players who didn't think throwing was cheap, helped form the beginnings of today's FGC.

The issue here is that many folks only remember playing in arcades with scrub rules. But in the places where the seeds of todays FGC were being planted, throws were fair game.

tldr: throws were never cheap.
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You can say that throws weren't cheap all you want, but the bottom line is that throws were not balanced in the early street fighter games. For one, they did way too much damage. Second, one of the best ways to escape a throw was to counter throw. Since there was no "trade" or "tech" with throws in SF2, if both players executed a throw on the same frame, the game would randomly choose who won.

So, in a game where a throw does maybe 20% damage (probably more?), and the game randomly deciding who won a throw trade, you get a 40% swing in life (+20%, -20%). That's just too much randomness for a fighting game.
 
ILuvFightGames

ILuvFightGames

Noob
d3v said:
Throwing has been a staple of high level play ever since Street Fighter II. While you had some holdouts at certain arcades who had scrub rules, eventually, people were just forced to accept it once people started playing to win against players from other regions. Top players from that era like Tomo Ohira, Thomas Osaki, Seth Killian, etc. all used throws, especially when the first few tournaments started. Sure, they'd sometimes get in trouble in some arcades where people had scrub rules, but eventually, they won out because they were winning. Eventually, these same players who didn't think throwing was cheap, helped form the beginnings of today's FGC.

The issue here is that many folks only remember playing in arcades with scrub rules. But in the places where the seeds of todays FGC were being planted, throws were fair game.

tldr: throws were never cheap.
Click to expand...
d3v said:
Throwing has been a staple of high level play ever since Street Fighter II. While you had some holdouts at certain arcades who had scrub rules, eventually, people were just forced to accept it once people started playing to win against players from other regions. Top players from that era like Tomo Ohira, Thomas Osaki, Seth Killian, etc. all used throws, especially when the first few tournaments started. Sure, they'd sometimes get in trouble in some arcades where people had scrub rules, but eventually, they won out because they were winning. Eventually, these same players who didn't think throwing was cheap, helped form the beginnings of today's FGC.

The issue here is that many folks only remember playing in arcades with scrub rules. But in the places where the seeds of todays FGC were being planted, throws were fair game.

tldr: throws were never cheap.
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I'm sorry but you're wrong with many if not every statement you mention. I got the chance to play Tomo, in La Jolla CA I believe and he never threw anyone he played against there. I also played other top players from S. Cali back in the day, Wei,Dave and a couple others at San Diego UTC arcade where the best players from S.Cali had tournaments. THEY DID NOT THROW! Matter of fact, I recall Wei (don't really know if anyone remembers him?) but he was the best San Diego player if I recall correctly, anyways he was using Ryu and so was I, he got close and did a short short fierce> fireball and I blocked, he then tried some other move but ended up throwing me, his words were "shit, sorry man" and he let me throw him back. So no, they didn't throw. If you want to know the reason why throwing became ok in tournaments was only because some players used to get hits in and then they'd let time run out, which was horrible especially when characters didn't have a fireball, and there was no chip damage. That's the ONLY reason top players accepted throwing. Also, I went to arcades in all california, Texas, and even Tijuana and they all had this throwing philosophy, so I'm curious about where exactly were your "not scrub" arcades? To me people who deny this were either people who knew it was cheap and didn't care or people who were the REAL scrubs and hid their deficiency in skill by walking up to the better player and pressing a button to throw.

TL;DR- Yes, throwing was always considered cheap!
 
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d3v

d3v

SRK
ILuvFightGames said:
I'm sorry but you're wrong with many if not every statement you mention. I got the chance to play Tomo, in La Jolla CA I believe and he never threw anyone he played against there. I also played other top players from S. Cali back in the day, Wei,Dave and a couple others at San Diego UTC arcade where the best players from S.Cali had tournaments. THEY DID NOT THROW! Matter of fact, I recall Wei (don't really know if anyone remembers him?) but he was the best San Diego player if I recall correctly, anyways he was using Ryu and so was I, he got close and did a short short fierce> fireball and I blocked, he then tried some other move but ended up throwing me, his words were "shit, sorry man" and he let me throw him back. So no, they didn't throw. If you want to know the reason why throwing became ok in tournaments was only because some players used to get hits in and then they'd let time run out, which was horrible especially when characters didn't have a fireball, and there was no chip damage. That's the ONLY reason top players accepted throwing. Also, I went to arcades in all california, Texas, and even Tijuana and they all had this throwing philosophy, so I'm curious about where exactly were your "not scrub" arcades? To me people who deny this were either people who knew it was cheap and didn't care or people who were the REAL scrubs and hid their deficiency in skill by walking up to the better player and pressing a button to throw.

TL;DR- Yes, throwing was always considered cheap!
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Not by everyone, guys like Seth, Sirlin, etc. had stories about going around and actually having to sneak out of arcades because they were doing what most scrubs were calling "cheap". Seth's actually talked many times about how he learned to throw when fighting an Illinois player named Ming who kept throwing him, making him realize that he had to drop the "genteman's agreement" to stop throwing - something he credits with making him a better Street Fighter player. Heck, Seth and Ming would later on go to other arcades where people played with "scrub rules" and eventually just start winning by throwing people.

If there was a time where throwing was considered by many to be "cheap", it was because there was a philosophical battle between those who did think that way, and those who didn't. So in other words, throws stopped being considered "cheap" simply because one side won out. There wasn't some magic moment where a it was decided that throws in a certain game were no longer cheap. But rather, it was because the players who did use throws and other "cheap" tactics eventually won out. Guys like Seth, Sirlin, et. al. created what we could call the "philosophical core" of the FGC and how the games are played.
 
marietta1200

marietta1200

Best Coast
d3v said:
Not by everyone, guys like Seth, Sirlin, etc. had stories about going around and actually having to sneak out of arcades because they were doing what most scrubs were calling "cheap". Seth's actually talked many times about how he learned to throw when fighting an Illinois player named Ming who kept throwing him, making him realize that he had to drop the "genteman's agreement" to stop throwing - something he credits with making him a better Street Fighter player. Heck, Seth and Ming would later on go to other arcades where people played with "scrub rules" and eventually just start winning by throwing people.

If there was a time where throwing was considered by many to be "cheap", it was because there was a philosophical battle between those who did think that way, and those who didn't. So in other words, throws stopped being considered "cheap" simply because one side won out. There wasn't some magic moment where a it was decided that throws in a certain game were no longer cheap. But rather, it was because the players who did use throws and other "cheap" tactics eventually won out. Guys like Seth, Sirlin, et. al. created what we could call the "philosophical core" of the FGC and how the games are played.
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Dude I know no one is gonna change your mind but I gotta say: just because a cadre of elite players were talented enough to get around cheap throw tactics in 1991 SF2 (I'm taking your word for it, but I believe @ILuvFightGames just as much) doesn't mean that some "official" version of throw development was clearly the result of their play. By that logic wouldn't we still have throws doing massive damage with no techs (etc.)? Seems like throwing frequently (and in stagger strings) is "allowed" today, at least in part, because the mechanics are largely different from SF2.
 
ILuvFightGames

ILuvFightGames

Noob
marietta1200 said:
Dude I know no one is gonna change your mind but I gotta say: just because a cadre of elite players were talented enough to get around cheap throw tactics in 1991 SF2 (I'm taking your word for it, but I believe @ILuvFightGames just as much) doesn't mean that some "official" version of throw development was clearly the result of their play. By that logic wouldn't we still have throws doing massive damage with no techs (etc.)? Seems like throwing frequently (and in stagger strings) is "allowed" today, at least in part, because the mechanics are largely different from SF2.
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Thanks, believe me I played with the best of them, I consider Tomo the greatest SF player of all time, he and EVERYONE at that time considered throwing to be cheap, and if you want to know when throwing was officially banned it was after one of the first ever sf2 tournamentswhere a player using Guile won easily without losing a single round, how and why was throwing banned? Because that player used a cheap tactic that we used to call ticking, where you jabbed an opponent and if he blocked he'd just throw you.
After the Guile's victory, there was much wailing and gnashing of teeth.
Because the technique was _literally_ inescapable at the time, the players
decided that it had to be some sort of over-sight on Capcom's part. They
gave it a name, a tick. Why tick? 'Cause that's the sound of the repeated
jabs right before you get thrown. *tick tick HUUURRG!* Once they'd named
it, it was immediately banned. The house rules all over the city (not just
this arcade) suddenly became....
1. You throw you let the guy throw you back.
2. You forfeit the next round if you didn't agree.
So yeah, I'm still waiting to see where throwing WASN'T considered cheap.
 
ILuvFightGames

ILuvFightGames

Noob
karaokelove said:
Throwing not allowed? I didn't play with pussies, so I don't recall any such rule.
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Then you never played at an arcade in California, Texas, New Mexico. I went to Guadalajara mexico one summer and even there the rule applied. I'm starting to think people even out being less skilled in a fighting game with the cheesy throw."Oh boy, this guys out thinking me for every move, ok I'll just throw his ass so I can get some life off of him" is what I really call a scrub. Note: I'm not saying you can't beat me without throws or nothing bruh I'm just saying how it was back then.
 
Aramonde

Aramonde

Noob
So Johnny from Happy Console Gamer wasn't making this up lol. He lived in Canada (Vancouver) and he said throwing was a no-no. He said if you threw and didn't let the opponent throw back you got taken out back and got your ass beat.

I was a little kid in the mid to late 90's so i mostly played other games. I miss the arcades, so many good memories with my bro ^_^

Edit: I found the video! Skip to 8:00 to see the throwing part. If you watch the beginning you'll hear a funny/creepy story about how his friend almost got molested by an old man. If anyone watches that part did you know of any arcades that had adult entertainment in the back?

 
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d3v

d3v

SRK
marietta1200 said:
Dude I know no one is gonna change your mind but I gotta say: just because a cadre of elite players were talented enough to get around cheap throw tactics in 1991 SF2 (I'm taking your word for it, but I believe @ILuvFightGames just as much) doesn't mean that some "official" version of throw development was clearly the result of their play. By that logic wouldn't we still have throws doing massive damage with no techs (etc.)? Seems like throwing frequently (and in stagger strings) is "allowed" today, at least in part, because the mechanics are largely different from SF2.
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No, throwing is allowed because the players who used them eventually won out.

Yes, softening was introduced in ST, however throws are still also used in HF and CE. Play these games today and you will be thrown. Just watch this video of Watson playing the game from 2007. What does he do when he's in, he tick throws Ryu multiple times in a row.
Now take note that this is from a time when HF was still being played heavily in GGPO/2DF as well as any arcades that had them and was, and still is, considered by many to be the de-facto standard for competitive non-ST Street Fighter.

As for the original, it has too many issue to be considered truly competitive, including the lack of mirror matches. CE fixes these issues, however the bosses are too dominant.
 
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