General/Other - Gunslinger Thoughts On Potential Gunslinger Changes

[DarthVado]

So I've been thinking about what NRS could potentially do to improve Gunslinger, and I've come up with some ideas.
- Add neutral gun normal options
So when I say that, I mean Gunslinger should have access to several of the normals that utilize his gun during strings as their own moves. For example, Down forward diagonal could be his D1 normal from his B32D1 string, and Up forward diagonal 2 could be his 2 from F242 string and up forward diagonal 1 could be his U1 from his B32U1 string. This would make Erron a much better zoner, give him pokes from long range and provide him with a much better anti-air option.

- Give His Stand Off Stance 4 a brief period of projectile invulnerability
If Gunslinger had this, I think his zoning would become amazing and a lot scarier. SOS 4 only does 10%, but it's hit advantage is it's real asset, giving him enough to set up more zoning or go in for oki using a sand grenade. The main problem with it now is that you cannot get any of that as long as your opponent mashes a projectile out, it's recovery is too long, and it's start up is also long. Instead of making the move just faster and more braindead, I think it should be able to dodge projectiles if timed correctly, giving Erron an option against counter zoning.

-Make His Coin Shot Have Slightly Less Recovery, and Add a Closer Shot
When I say slight, I mean slight, like maybe 1 or 2 frames. I don't know if people have noticed this, but Erron's coin shot actually acts similar to a dive kick in a Capcom game, where the lower down you hit the opponent with it, the less negative on block it is. A coin shot that hits the opponent's foot seems to be around 0 on block from my testing. a slight decrease in the overall recovery would allow a well placed shot to actually be plus on block, which is great for zoning. I also think a closer shot should be added so that Erron can use it during pressure. The start up of coin shot is more than enough for it to be perfectly fair for Erron to be plus on a well placed shot, and this would give him an option to trick an opponent into letting him continue pressure.

That's all I got for now, if I think of anything else I'll make sure to post it. Tell me what you guys think, and maybe we can actually get some buffs for our favorite little 'slinger.

 

[DarthVado]

I should also mention that these are all intended to be Gunslinger exclusive changes.

 

[Harlequin969]

These aren't bad changes but the overlying issue is what is the identity of Gunslinger Erron Black. Because it's not rush down, that's Outlaw. It's not full on zoning cause that's Marksman. I feel like this variation should be a mix of both. Use the varrying poking gunshot attacks to gain advantage that allow Erron to run in for quick damage and then reset to about mid range. He pokes with gun shots and sand grenades while looking for a chance to quickly go in but not stay in.

With that in mind I think we should have the added gunshot moves be maybe neautral on block but good on hit giving him his opprotunity to get in consistently. As an add on the gunshots won't do a lot of meaninful damage. They'd literally be poke and getting in, so they'd have to be fast enough for Erron to run in and maybe go for a 50/50?

I'm not sure just spit balling thoughts on Gunslinger.

 

[Helter Skelter]

Make his coin shots overhead and his stance dash cancellable. That's what I would suggest.

 

[BillStickers]

give coin shot a heads (overhead) and tails (low) option.

 

[DarthVado]

give coin shot a heads (overhead) and tails (low) option.

Not good enough, add a heads (you lose) and tails (I win) game deciding mix up to it.

 

[wsj515]

These aren't bad changes but the overlying issue is what is the identity of Gunslinger Erron Black. Because it's not rush down, that's Outlaw. It's not full on zoning caue that's Marksman.

I cringe every time I see someone say marksman is a zoning variation

 

[The Farmer]

I just want to juggle with ex coin shot, that so much to ask? Sos4 invulnerability I agree with.

 

[DarthVado]

I cringe every time I see someone say marksman is a zoning variation

Originally when I picked up the game I thought Marksman was as well, but after having spent a lot more time, I kinda realized Gunslinger was the real zoning variant. Marksman's more of the mix bag, because he still has a lot of solid up close tools for pressure that Gunslinger lacks. Gunslinger covers better angles for zoning I think, and I'd like NRS to give him more tools towards that goal.

 

[SaJa]

These aren't bad changes but the overlying issue is what is the identity of Gunslinger Erron Black. Because it's not rush down, that's Outlaw. It's not full on zoning cause that's Marksman.

Marskman isn't a zoning variation at all... In fact, his only decent zoning tool in outlaw/marskman is the bf3 (the only tool that can outzone subzero at fullscreen). Marskman is just good for setup by gun cancelling. You can trade against some characters, but it's still a very poor zoning variation. The winchester is way too slow to do something viable with zoning.

Anyway, to me gunslinger should have overhead on coins, faster stance cancel, and a faster stance 4.

stance 2 is only good to break armors at close position since it's a double hit or against jump if they are jumping on us while we have the stance (we can do it on reaction online).

 

[Pakman]

He should get a proper anti air gunshot that he can whip out on reaction - akin to OPs example. Erron currently has no proper AA, he should get one in Gunslinger

The real issue I feel with this variation is it doesn't really offer much that A) Erron doesn't already do and/or B) - gel well with Errons game plan

Money shot is great as a ghetto AA but beyond that there is never any reason to use this tool in any match apart from Sub Zero GM. EX version showers several bullets down, but it is very rare to get all 3 to connect and in situations where that does happen Erron has much better universal options anyway. Plus, I'd rather save that bar and use it for sand grenade combo conversions instead.

Solution: ex version gets juggle properties for extra combo potential.

Sos 2 has a good angle but the lack of hard knock down or even being able to follow it up with anything and the fact that he can't whip it out on reaction reduces its utility substantially, 9/10 you are better off using d2...

Solution: give it a hard knock down property, buff damage to 15% or buff the hit box on it so I can actually use it outside of b2...pick any two of the three buffs.

Sos 4 is great but you never get a chance to use it more than once in a row since you waste frame advantage getting back into SoS (when it would have been better to use sand grenade or simply run cancel into pressure/d2), so you can't really zone for very long anyway. I do like the sound of giving it projectile invincibility, but I doubt NRS will give us this as it is already a strong tool (2 mid hitting horizontal shots plus a free back dash?!)
Solution: reduce start up or recovery by 1-2 frames

Sos 3 is great for blowing up wake ups and caltrop synergy, pity it is punishable on block... And once again, you waste precious frame advantage getting into sos to even do this and once again Erron has much better universal tools like idk f1 (overhead) or sand tackle or you know block/bait.

Solution: make it minus 2 on block and no longer punishable. This gives SoS a purpose and forces the opponent to actually respect it and guess.

Someone (forgot username, sorry) in another thread suggested doing away with Stand off stance altogether and have his follow up options be usable via raw inputs; I feel this would be the perfect solution for Erron personally since you currently often tend to lose any frame advantage you had just getting into SoS in the first place.

The stance itself offers no real advantage either - it is supposed to make your opponent guess but in reality at close to mid screen they just need to block low eat the ~3% chip and punish, or if they are at full screen, jump forwards over retreating shots and close the distance. Wow what a guessing game(!)

This potential buff I feel would lead to massive balancing problems however, so we probably won't get it any time soon. Or at all.


At the same time though, I do think we should be looking to fix things that don't work properly (anti airing in general) rather than buffing things for the sake of it.

 

[DarthVado]

I really only use stance 2 for AA's from a distance.

I can see faster stance cancel as being a good change, but I don't want it run cancelable, I want it to be unique from Marksman. In terms of the coin shots, I think slightly reducing their recovery would overall be better, since it's too slow to be a mix up, so it being an overhead is kinda pointless, but reducing the recovery would allow it to be very good for pressure from different ranges.

 

[Harlequin969]

If gunslinger is the variation for zoning then it does not do that job well at all. Coin trick having all that start up and also needing to be aimed for not that much damage or advantage is not that great honestly. Not to mention SoS 4 also isn't fast enough and can be punished. The only true zoning move he has that's reliable is the sand grenade and since it's low it can be avoided, not to mention it's in every variation so it's not unquire to Gunslinger.

 

[SaJa]

I admit that despite his breaking armor on the stance 2, db4 is a faster AA anyway. Maybe buffing the frame on the db4 would be good in gunslinger while stance 2 would make more damage.

 

[DarthVado]

If gunslinger is the variation for zoning then it does not do that job well at all. Coin trick having all that start up and also needing to be aimed for not that much damage or advantage is not that great honestly. Not to mention SoS 4 also isn't fast enough and can be punished. The only true zoning move he has that's reliable is the sand grenade and since it's low it can be avoided, not to mention it's in every variation so it's not unquire to Gunslinger.

Actually, I disagree, I think Gunslinger is pretty good at zoning, but needs more tools to even it out a bit more.

The coin shot has a lot of start up, but it's very unique for a projectile for several reasons. For one it's trajectory can actually be changed after you fire it, up until it hits the coin, so it makes avoiding it a lot more difficult since I can alter it according to where my opponent is. 2, due to how it travels, it can actually be made less negative on block based on where it hits the opponent. It's almost 0 block if you hit your opponent below the knee, so it's like a projectile dive kick. SoS 4 is slow, but there are a lot of ways to set it up, and on hit, it has a huge advantage. In my testing, if SoS 4 hits, Erron is given a free low grenade toss which the opponent must block, or delay their wake up. Erron is safe by the time they can wake up from about over 3/4's screen or so, so you can use that to either go into more zoning, or for fullscreen oki. Erron's normal gun shots also have their own uses, with 32 being a good mid projectile with a good hit box good knock back on block, and F132 actually being able to duck under and punish many projectiles, on top of having huge knock back on hit and block.

 

[Harlequin969]

Actually, I disagree, I think Gunslinger is pretty good at zoning, but needs more tools to even it out a bit more.

The coin shot has a lot of start up, but it's very unique for a projectile for several reasons. For one it's trajectory can actually be changed after you fire it, up until it hits the coin, so it makes avoiding it a lot more difficult since I can alter it according to where my opponent is. 2, due to how it travels, it can actually be made less negative on block based on where it hits the opponent. It's almost 0 block if you hit your opponent below the knee, so it's like a projectile dive kick. SoS 4 is slow, but there are a lot of ways to set it up, and on hit, it has a huge advantage. In my testing, if SoS 4 hits, Erron is given a free low grenade toss which the opponent must block, or delay their wake up. Erron is safe by the time they can wake up from about over 3/4's screen or so, so you can use that to either go into more zoning, or for fullscreen oki. Erron's normal gun shots also have their own uses, with 32 being a good mid projectile with a good hit box good knock back on block, and F132 actually being able to duck under and punish many projectiles, on top of having huge knock back on hit and block.

I guess my issue with it is that Gunslinger doesn't have enough benefits to differenate itself from the other two. Between SoS 4 and Coin trick they're both good tools. But the two normal gunshot moves you mentioned can be used by the other two variations so there isn't enough unique tools for Gunslinger to make it's zoning truly viable unless I'm missing something.

Also is Gunglinger a variation where you want to primarily zone or is it zone until you can go in? Because like I said, I don't think his zoning does enough damage in it's on right for it to be his primary damage source.

 

[DarthVado]

I guess my issue with it is that Gunslinger doesn't have enough benefits to differenate itself from the other two. Between SoS 4 and Coin trick they're both good tools. But the two normal gunshot moves you mentioned can be used by the other two variations so there isn't enough unique tools for Gunslinger to make it's zoning truly viable unless I'm missing something.

Also is Gunglinger a variation where you want to primarily zone or is it zone until you can go in? Because like I said, I don't think his zoning does enough damage in it's on right for it to be his primary damage source.

If you manage to open your opponent up, I def say you should go in, but depending on the MU, zoning can work very well in it's own right, but it's obviously difficult.

 

[Harlequin969]

If you manage to open your opponent up, I def say you should go in, but depending on the MU, zoning can work very well in it's own right, but it's obviously difficult.

That's the issue then. I'm not sure if this is lazy or not but it shouldn't be difficult to use my variations gimmicks. And not just to a new comer but to someone who understands the character. Again, I'm not great at Erron and maybe I don't understand exactly what Gunslinger's game plan but it feels like just using my tools alone feels like a handicap.

 

[DarthVado]

Gunslinger takes more time to get used to than most characters, but you start to pick it up after awhile. Especially once you know how to convert your damage off hits, it becomes a lot easier. Still the nichest variation, but I think it can work

 

[Harlequin969]

Guess I'll just have to lab and practice him more. I really like the idea of Erron Black and his fighting style so he's definatelly someone I want to get better with. Plus he looks way too cool with that hat on.

 

[just_2swift]

Let him run cancel stand off stance or give him sand special. Coins should be overhead. Give him a coin fake special where he throws the coin up but doesn't shoot but can shoot it with an extra input if wanted to. Gives him an option to keep ppl in check to a degree.

 

[DarthVado]

Guess I'll just have to lab and practice him more. I really like the idea of Erron Black and his fighting style so he's definatelly someone I want to get better with. Plus he looks way too cool with that hat on.

It's def a variation that makes you feel good when you win lol.

 

[DarthVado]

Let him run cancel stand off stance or give him sand special. Coins should be overhead. Give him a coin fake special where he throws the coin up but doesn't shoot but can shoot it with an extra input if wanted to. Gives him an option to keep ppl in check to a degree.

Fake coin is an interesting idea, I think it would be really cool especially if they added that along with the less recovery frames and closer coin shot I mentioned, would make opponent's scared to poke out for fear of it being a fake coin.

 

[wsj515]

Someone (forgot username, sorry) in another thread suggested doing away with Stand off stance altogether and have his follow up options be usable via raw inputs; I feel this would be the perfect solution for Erron personally since you currently often tend to lose any frame advantage you had just getting into SoS in the first place.

The stance itself offers no real advantage either - it is supposed to make your opponent guess but in reality at close to mid screen they just need to block low eat the ~3% chip and punish, or if they are at full screen, jump forwards over retreating shots and close the distance. Wow what a guessing game(!)

This potential buff I feel would lead to massive balancing problems however, so we probably won't get it any time soon. Or at all.

This was me

Like I said in the other thread, all sos serves to do is cram 3 specials into one as well as simultaneously hurt the specials because of sos's awful startup. The guessing game you get from the "stance" is never worth it, extremely high risk for very low reward.

I feel like a mod should merge this thread and the "gunslinger and holster stance" thread, they're basically the same thing

 

[wsj515]

If gunslinger is the variation for zoning then it does not do that job well at all. Coin trick having all that start up and also needing to be aimed for not that much damage or advantage is not that great honestly. Not to mention SoS 4 also isn't fast enough and can be punished. The only true zoning move he has that's reliable is the sand grenade and since it's low it can be avoided, not to mention it's in every variation so it's not unquire to Gunslinger.

And therein lies our problem, gunslinger is a zone-y variation and our zoning is subpar, combine that with our lack of decent anti-air. Honestly, @DarthVado is upplaying gunslinger's zoning big time. A lot of the reason why any of it works is because people are unfamiliar with the matchup.