This is why I think Sub Zero got nerfed after Beta!?

[Bulletz4Breakfast]

Okay I did some digging and on why Sub Zero was nerfed after Beta, it wasn't just Casuals complaining, literally the best players in the world had very bad takes. Ninjakilla vs Xombats and ninja was hard core complaining saying clone was dumb and that multiple moves needed to be removed (Clone and Clone Push) being two of them, His "Mid was too fast", "Clone is stupid and has to go"

Meanwhile they knew they could punish Clone with a bar easy. He wanted to punish clone meterlessly then!?

Also complaining about his Damage

Literally everything they nerfed on Sub was complained about by Ninjakilla in this video.



Here's the video, I know @M2Dave and TomBrady want to see this:

 

[Bulletz4Breakfast]

Okay Ninjakilla replied to my comment under his 5 month old video essentially trying to claim he's good and his clone is good.
The problem with that is not one single player he vs in this 44min video never punished his neutral clones from poke or his divekicks. I'll admit Ninja was smart with the Divekick use and usually did it during recovery to punish.
But clearly his opponents was not at all familiar with the matchup or refused to lab Sub up a day in their life.
Subs Clone used in neutral outside of combo setups is one of the easiest things to punish on NRS history. I'm talking recovery that's so bad you can wait till subs feet touch the ground then use a fatal blow to punish it slow:

Here's the comment I posted to him:

I think his claim is he's cracking 500 with him (3 BARS) with specific Kameos and he's catching people mashing pokes constantly. I think the opponent shouldn't be mashing and many other characters get 500 for 1BAR
Sub is a high risk character for medium reward, he can't even poke into jailed S1/S2 string safely like every other character can. Everything he does is punishable.
Clone Divekick, BF2, every string has a gap, Ice Ball is garbage, not sure what else to say.
I'll believe Sub is great when he's at multiple offline Top 8 placements with Only Sub Zero used.

@Amplified$hotz
@Eji1700
@M2Dave am I wrong, if I am please correct me?

 

[M2Dave]

In one of the podcasts multiple years ago, I firmly defended Ninja Killa when certain individuals claimed that he was nowhere near Sonic Fox's level, which results have proven and continue to prove was false. However, Ninja Killa has had a penchant for complaining about zoning and space control for as long as he has been playing fighting games. I recall watching Ninja Killa versus Foxy in a casual set as Ninja Killa was complaining about Foxy's runaway gameplay while dealing 50% of damage or more after every touch with pre-patch Raiden/Jax.

I repeat that Mortal Kombat 1 is an anti-zoning buffet. Trays are filled with teleports, armor, reflects, etc. Ninja Killa became famous in the late days of Mortal Kombat X because of his dexterity, and rightfully so. Lest we forget that Mortal Kombat X is one of the most anti-zoning fighting games ever created.

Nothing more needs to be said.

 

[Eji1700]

It’s going to be a constant fight because the simple problem is you can probably take sub to elder god with shit that you won’t let you out of pools in a major.

His kit is one massive knowledge check so the players who just want to “do the thing” with kenshi/cage/whoever haven’t spent a moment in the lab for anything more than combo practice and have probably never armored a gap in their life let alone realized clone is punishable AFTER sub hits the ground.

I’d you’re not at a tournament or running a bo3-10 with someone good it’s just noise. In the few moments I skipped through a bit he already got away with 3 on reaction punishable clones.

 

[Bulletz4Breakfast]

It’s going to be a constant fight because the simple problem is you can probably take sub to elder god with shit that you won’t let you out of pools in a major.

His kit is one massive knowledge check so the players who just want to “do the thing” with kenshi/cage/whoever haven’t spent a moment in the lab for anything more than combo practice and have probably never armored a gap in their life let alone realized clone is punishable AFTER sub hits the ground.

I’d you’re not at a tournament or running a bo3-10 with someone good it’s just noise. In the few moments I skipped through a bit he already got away with 3 on reaction punishable clones.

I counted over 10 in just the first match, and poke into clone is a neutral clone and it's close enough literally 98% of roster can punish on reaction because NRS gave him 1.5 seconds of punishable frames. I could be drunk and high on shrooms and still punish that clone.
The Divekick is harder but with practice it is punishable on reaction and I've tested this with 4 completely different options on hidden random playback and done it on the shitty Netcode online.
It's worth mentioning Sub Zero is a much better character in KL than offline. His B2 is hardly reactable vs most situations because of input lag which I believe is 3f minimum and mostly 5f lag. The other reason is 95% of players online that I've played against climbing to Elder God doesn't lab anything but combos.

 

[Juggs]

I said this not only after the nerf but even kinda called it beforehand. I mean, I was just joking/being sarcastic, but still, lol.

NRS definitely takes community feedback into consideration, especially if you’re a top player or even a content creator (who isn’t a top player). There’s been plenty of evidence of this, I actually had a long thing written out talking about this and listing specific examples, but ended up keeping it “in the drafts”. It was for another thread btw.

Anyway, nerfs to characters from the beta to the full game was something I was afraid of, and it’s why I was ultimately glad Scorpion and Smoke weren’t in it. Because those changes unfortunately tend to stick, and Sub is a great example of that.

 

[ImpostorOak]

I counted over 10 in just the first match, and poke into clone is a neutral clone and it's close enough literally 98% of roster can punish on reaction because NRS gave him 1.5 seconds of punishable frames. I could be drunk and high on shrooms and still punish that clone.
The Divekick is harder but with practice it is punishable on reaction and I've tested this with 4 completely different options on hidden random playback and done it on the shitty Netcode online.
It's worth mentioning Sub Zero is a much better character in KL than offline. His B2 is hardly reactable vs most situations because of input lag which I believe is 3f minimum and mostly 5f lag. The other reason is 95% of players online that I've played against climbing to Elder God doesn't lab anything but combos.

So, with your inspiration I went into the lab to see if there was a better Punish to poke Clone for Liu than EXFireball and here it is. With Fatal Blow, you can get a 650 damage Punish.

 

[rifraf]

In one of the podcasts multiple years ago, I firmly defended Ninja Killa when certain individuals claimed that he was nowhere near Sonic Fox's level, which results have proven and continue to prove was false. However, Ninja Killa has had a penchant for complaining about zoning and space control for as long as he has been playing fighting games. I recall watching Ninja Killa versus Foxy in a casual set as Ninja Killa was complaining about Foxy's runaway gameplay while dealing 50% of damage or more after every touch with pre-patch Raiden/Jax.

I repeat that Mortal Kombat 1 is an anti-zoning buffet. Trays are filled with teleports, armor, reflects, etc. Ninja Killa became famous in the late days of Mortal Kombat X because of his dexterity, and rightfully so. Lest we forget that Mortal Kombat X is one of the most anti-zoning fighting games ever created.

Nothing more needs to be said.

Damn. What an egotistical prick. He is clearly very biased and has an agenda. NRS should never listen to players like him, that's on them.

 

[Tony at Home]

You're thinking about this too much.

The beta we played was likely many weeks behind the latest build of the game NRS had internally.

Most of the time betas are at least one month old builds. In all likelihood, Sub Zero had been "nerfed" before anyone ever played him in the beta.