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This Is How They Get Away With It:" Former NetherRealm Studios Contract Devs Reveal a Troubling Studio Culture

Xentex

Noob
So, these people are not making a ton of money, and are barely getting by (working additional overtime just to make ends meet) and some people think it's going to be easy for them to just quit, leave their income, job hunt, interview process, and about a month after being hired to get their first pay cheque?
I think you're looking at it a little wrong.

Postal workers, who drive a truck around and put letters into little boxes, make way more than $11 an hour. Long haul truck drivers are in short supply, and a Walmart driver makes $71K per year on average. The average guy mowing lawns and humping mulch around in wheelbarrows makes more than $11/hr.

These are very low skill jobs. Arguably unskilled jobs. And they pay a heck of a lot more than what these graphics designers are making.

Just because these people want to turn their passion (graphic design) into a profession doesn't mean they're entitled to success doing it. They're in a grossly overcrowded field, and if they can't make a viable career out of it then maybe it's time they considered alternatives.

I'd love to play guitar for a living. But unfortunately nobody's all that interested in listening to me play. So it's a hobby. Similar for these people. Having a hobby that some people get paid for doesn't mean it's smart to bet on it as a career path.
 

Rpgz

Fraudguad/Weeb?
If they dont like NRS ILL TAKE THEIR JOB! I got no fam or life...good thing I know how hard game developement can be BEFORE I pursue it...otherwise Id be a fool...
 

aj1701

Noob
Engineering is rarely the exploited class in game development. As a gameplay programmer there's demand for my services and I'm compensated well enough (although on average salaries trend lower than for engineers in other fields). It would be patently absurd for someone to pay an engineer $11/hr, they would have to be so unqualified to consider accepting that contract that their work output would be completely unusable. The article, based on my reading, mostly refers to the exploitation of contract workers in art and QA, which have way less leverage, especially because there's an army of young people willing to take their place, even if their motivations might be misguided. It's a complicated issue, one that shouldn't be hand-waved away by saying "well they shouldn't have allowed themselves to be taken advantage of". It's a classic tactic across entry level positions in so many industries to offer the possibility of future opportunities gated behind a period of abuse and exploitation, when in reality the chance that those opportunities actually manifest for a given individual is low or nearly impossible. There's no way to know whether or not that's true without tremendous insight into company culture and supernatural foresight. I'd like to live in a world where everyone's contributions to the project are valued and compensated in a reasonably fair manner, even entry level employees, and for the record there are plenty of companies that do so.
Yet the article does include programmers in the article describing low pay and alleged abuse. I think its clear they are trying to suggest that the conditions are similar for all the contractors.

As far as art/QA go, well starving artist has been a meme I can remember since childhood. And QA mostly requires almost no skill; good QA leads should (and do) command better salaries, but they put more thought into things that just pushing buttons. And QA here is literally "play this (extremely popular) game alot and let us know if you find anything that seems broken." Talk about a job that will attract far more people that is really needed.

People are too naive with stuff like this; yes, a very few might stand out and might get hired full time. But no one seems willing to admit that its probably not going to be them, which leads to low pay. Its why i brought up actors and football players, because its the same more supply than demand. But people are too emotional about getting their dream job instead of thinking rationally, and I have a hard time feeling sorry for people like that.
 

Xelz

Go over there!
I guess it's not too surprising, but this thread devolved into personal attacks, political rhetoric, no real constructive dialogue, and now hardly anything specific to NRS or MK11. Is there a point at which a thread gets locked or moved to a different forum so it stops bumping down MK11 relevant discussions?
 

Zoidberg747

My blades will find your heart
So, these people are not making a ton of money, and are barely getting by (working additional overtime just to make ends meet) and some people think it's going to be easy for them to just quit, leave their income, job hunt, interview process, and about a month after being hired to get their first pay cheque?

All the while having a family to support?

I don't think it's just as simple as "just quit" considering they would also give up all forms of social security to do that.
If they haven't been in that situation before they likely don't care. Always been like that in these types of conversations.
 

KingHippo

Alternative-Fact Checker
I guess if you have no valid argument, just post a meme right?
I would reply, but it would be a waste of my time when right now one of the biggest video game developers in the world is having a walkout on their premises because they can't even sue the company for sexual misconduct and violating equal pay laws without the dev taking away their right to a jury trial. To suggest that the "major issues" have been solved and therefore we don't need unions is a baffling "I got mine, so fuck everyone else" statement that doesn't really deserve to be argued.
 

Xentex

Noob
To suggest that the "major issues" have been solved and therefore we don't need unions is a baffling "I got mine, so fuck everyone else" statement that doesn't really deserve to be argued.
Those are some pretty big blanket statements.

The world's problems will never be solved, because no matter which side of the political ideological side you sit on at least half the world sits on the other side. That's the nature of humans. We will always disagree, and thus the notion that "major issues" will ever be solved is naive and a non-starter.

Arguing with our neighbors is the norm. And we'd all prefer more leisure and less work for more pay.

At some point we all decide what level of work we're willing to put in to optimize our own personal work/leisure balance. And then most of us periodically complain that somebody is taking advantage of the system, either by earning too much or working too little.

The timeless big picture issue is that humans are envious, selfish, lazy, and stubborn. Every single one of them.

I don't hear anyone in this thread arguing "I got mine, so fuck everyone else." I hear "if you can't earn a living in your profession, change your profession." That's not the same thing at all. I've changed professions half a dozen times. If I see a better option tomorrow, I'll change professions again.
 
I guess it's not too surprising, but this thread devolved into personal attacks, political rhetoric, no real constructive dialogue, and now hardly anything specific to NRS or MK11. Is there a point at which a thread gets locked or moved to a different forum so it stops bumping down MK11 relevant discussions?
Yeah I would agree with this :D The battle lines have been pretty well drawn, and I don't think I can force anybody to use their heavily atrophied empathy muscle by making a good point. Locking would be best for this thread.
 

Xentex

Noob
It's not about empathy at all. At least not for most people.

I feel bad seeing anybody in a difficult or painful situation, whether it is one of their own making or one they couldn't have possibly foreseen.

The debate at hand is about relatively intelligent people who are determined to stay in a low paying field where the number of people eager to do it grossly exceeds the capacity of the industry to profitably employ them. I empathize, but the only practical answer for them is to choose a different line of work or live with the reality of their preferred profession.

Drawing pretty pictures is fun and not that hard. So is playing video games, for that matter. I guess I'm puzzled at why so many people here are shedding tears for the poor graphics designers but nobody seems all that upset about the inability for many people to make a living playing video games.

How many people will make a living playing MK 11? Are we all supposed to weep for the 400th best online streamer driving around the country trying to grind out $20 at local tournaments? I mean, I do feel bad for that guy. My son dreams of being a professional gamer (he's 11). Unlikely to happen. At some point he needs to grow up and realize a hobby and a profession are two different things, and it's very rare to make a living off a hobby.

I feel bad that his dream is unlikely to come true, but that's reality for most of us. And then we grow up, suck it up, and do what we must to survive.
 

Krankk

Smoke & Noob & Rain
Drawing pretty pictures is fun and not that hard.
Drawing pretty pictures is actually very hard, because it's an acquired skill. One which takes years to master. There are schools teaching you how to draw properly. And if you spend years and years to perfect your craftsmanship, you deserve to be rewarded.

So is playing video games, for that matter.
No idea how anyone in his or her right mindset can compare being a professional artist to playing video games.

I guess I'm puzzled at why so many people here are shedding tears for the poor graphics designers but nobody seems all that upset about the inability for many people to make a living playing video games.
Anyone can play video games at any time. I could create a Twitch channel right now and start streaming getting my ass kicked in MK 11, while yelling: "SMASH DAT FOLLOW BUTTON" like an idiot.

Not anyone can be a professional artist. I know how to draw (more or less), but the little bit I know took me months to learn. You need to learn about anatomy, compositions, perspective, light and shadows and much, much, much more.

How many people will make a living playing MK 11? Are we all supposed to weep for the 400th best online streamer driving around the country trying to grind out $20 at local tournaments? I mean, I do feel bad for that guy. My son dreams of being a professional gamer (he's 11). Unlikely to happen. At some point he needs to grow up and realize a hobby and a profession are two different things, and it's very rare to make a living off a hobby.
Tell your son to go and work at McDonalds. He doesn't need any form of education for that. He doesn't have to go to school for it and he doesn't have to teach himself anything. And he'll still be making more money than many people in the gaming industry, who had to invest money and years of their life to learn their craft.

How is that fair? How can anyone not see what the issue is with that?
 

KingHippo

Alternative-Fact Checker
The world's problems will never be solved, because no matter which side of the political ideological side you sit on at least half the world sits on the other side. That's the nature of humans. We will always disagree, and thus the notion that "major issues" will ever be solved is naive and a non-starter
Imagine thinking the right to work without being sexually harassed, the right to sue your employer for not paying you as much as male employees and the right to basic benefits for working ungodly hours are just "agree to disagree." Nice head
 

Xentex

Noob
Not anyone can be a professional artist. I know how to draw (more or less), but the little bit I know took me months to learn. You need to learn about anatomy, compositions, perspective, light and shadows and much, much, much more.
You're drawing some weird distinction I don't fully understand between being a performing artist on YouTube or Twitch and being a "professional artist."

I'll change my example, then. I pay a high school student $60 for 45 minute private art instruction for my daughter, who's 10. She's decent. Here's her website if you're interested: https://kchendraws.wixsite.com/imakeart

She can go off to college and get some kind of degree in art, and I suppose by your definition that's what differentiates a hobbyist from a "professional artist."

Either way, this is a high school girl I'm paying $60 an hour, vs. the $11 all these "professional artists" are complaining about. When your competition is a high school kid and you're working for about 1/6 the hourly rate I think it speaks volumes about the importance of your "professional" education.

Irrespective of all that.. I'll repeat that I feel bad for the starving artists. And the starving actors and actresses. And the starving video game coaches. And the guys like Shujinkydink, who put together good YouTube content but have to keep grinding out a living at their day jobs. Or Honeybee, etc. I wish them the best and appreciate what they do. But at the same time, reality is reality.

Whether it's drawing pictures or taking photos or singing or playing guitar, just because you devote yourself to something and even go and get a degree in it, that doesn't mean there's a viable career in it. Talk to my friend, the fireman, and his music degree from Berklee College of Music. 200th best Cellist in the country can make more money manning a fire hose. That's something kids are supposed to think about before devoting themselves to a "fun" profession.
 

Xentex

Noob
Imagine thinking the right to work without being sexually harassed, the right to sue your employer for not paying you as much as male employees and the right to basic benefits for working ungodly hours are just "agree to disagree." Nice head
Supreme Court has ruled on arbitration clauses. I can complain all day about different laws, but that's the law.

I don't know anyone who advocates for sexual harassment or unequal pay. Or racism or homophobia or anything else you want to add to the list of injustices. I know all of that exists, I think it's horrible, and pretty much everyone I know does as well.

These days we all carry audio and video recording equipment with us every minute of every day. Anyone being victimized should record it and post it on YouTube. But without a specific incident and reliable evidence I'm inclined to give the accused the benefit of the doubt. I realize that, to you, this means I have a broken head. I can live with that. Now please, stop fondling young boys. They don't deserve it.
 

KingHippo

Alternative-Fact Checker
Good to know that despite the victims filing lawsuits and expose article after article, there's still reason for skepticism. Also good to know that because your dumb worldview makes no sense and is pointed out, I'm some sort of child molester? Nice head
 

Wrenchfarm

Lexcorp Proprietary Technologies
Drawing pretty pictures is fun and not that hard. So is playing video games, for that matter. I guess I'm puzzled at why so many people here are shedding tears for the poor graphics designers but nobody seems all that upset about the inability for many people to make a living playing video games.
"installing cabinets is fun and not that hard, why do contractors insist on being paid for what they build?"

yes, you can make anyone sound entitled when you just entirely dismiss the years of training and practice it requires to develop a specialized skill and the practical value that skill produces with a wave of your hand. Everybody's job is "pretty easy" when you're not the one doing it.

Glad to know I don't need to take anything you say seriously.
 

Xentex

Noob
"installing cabinets is fun and not that hard, why do contractors insist on being paid for what they build?"

yes, you can make anyone sound entitled when you just entirely dismiss the years of training and practice it requires to develop a specialized skill and the practical value that skill produces with a wave of your hand. Everybody's job is "pretty easy" when you're not the one doing it.
Cabinet installers actually don't get paid well at all. Most homebuilders use general contractors for cabinet installation, and most of them don't get paid any better than the graphics designers you're complaining about. The renovation market is equally unrewarding to installers.

The cabinet industry has consolidated to less than half a dozen manufacturers covering over 90% of the American business. If you're buying cabinets from some local, or some Amish guy, you may not know it but he's actually buying them from a company like Masco. Even the "fully custom" cabinets from the high end boutique kitchen designers come through mass production lines. It's all done with automation, CNC equipment, and multi-million dollar facilities. I just did my kitchen in Plain & Fancy using a local "kitchen designer" who's been doing it 30+ years. Nobody involved is making much money. The cabinet business is tough.

You seem very bitter about all this. The simple fact is that most people lack skills that differentiate them from the pack enough to get paid over $100K with good job security. That's hard, and it takes planning and commitment. Like I said, if you're willing to drive a truck for a living it's pretty easy to make $70K plus full benefits. It's just not as fun as drawing pictures. That's why we have a shortage of truck drivers and an excess of graphic designers making $11 an hour.

That's not my fault or anyone here's fault. It's supply and demand. It can also very easily be sourced internationally, so even if US graphic designers unionized it wouldn't do them much good. The world has always been awash in starving artists. $11/hr would be a dream job for the starving artists in India and much of eastern Europe.

I find it ironic that passionate fans of the most graphically violent game franchise in the history of the world, on the website most dedicated to ruthless competition and a 'git gud' attitude toward dime-a-dozen scrubs, is so dominated by people crying out for more sensitivity in real life. You won't throw a match to the 14 year old button masher. You take pleasure in driving him to rage quit. You don't even feel sorry for him, because he's just another nameless scrub. But when it comes to people who pursue their hobbies as a career, unable to differentiate themselves from the pack, you're all tears and outrage. And I'm the one not making sense.

But if it makes you feel better I'll take a moment to weep for them. Hold on a sec. Ok, I had a good cry. The world's a terrible place. If all you cheap fuckers would just pony up a $10/month subscription fee for online play NRS could have paid everyone a living wage. It's all of our faults for being cheap. Selfish fucking people.

I know how to fix this, though. Let's organize a gofundme page. We'll get the names of all the people who worked on the game and each of us will commit to putting $10/month into that fund for as long as we play the game. That'll fix it all. I'll just cancel my United Way contributions and redirect it to the NRS victim fund. Victims of their own poor choices are the victims most in need.
 

Xelz

Go over there!
Looks like NRS still treats their employees bettter than some of you treat normal people.
This.... is probably the most accurate post in this thread.

Seriously, I saw someone claim that another poster made up his family's health/financial problems. That's just low and no decent human being would post that. I don't care what side of the debate anyone is on here - the vast majority lost the moral high ground to NRS somewhere around page 5.

Original post: NRS should treat people with more dignity and respect

TYM Community: Hold my beer