There has to be bad characters

[darkmoonlight_va]

I would like to see at least one variation of every character viable because i feel like some variations are almost impossible to make competitive.
**Note this is personal opinion**
For example Spectral Ermac. I haven't seen him doing a ton of things but his other variations are good and therefore part of him is viable.

 

[ZeZe]

Sorry if I'm comparing apples to oranges but in call of duty not every gun is going to be "good". Just like in fighting games not every character can be super good.

If you must make this analogy, you should have compared rather to the character (or class?) that is holding the weapon then only to a tool itself.

Besides there are no excuses when you have 3 variations system. The variation system is there for a purpose. I've read on these forums comments that undermine NRS competency in creating balanced fighting games (pretty heart breaking, I wouldn't go that far, but ... #StrangleHitboxes!) and people said that variation system at least gives NRS 3 chances per character not to screw up (harsh, yeah). Yet you still have characters that in all 3 variations are lacking. With 3 variations system at least one should be able to compete or better yet you should be able to use the system as intended - to swap variations to counter pick in decent manner.
I might be naive but I still want to believe, when DLC sales hype pressure is over, NRS will get to proper patching. Like, I still feel they can make pretty balanced game of MKX.

 

[juicepouch]

There do not have to be bad characters

Weaker, but a character like Grundy or Sheeva does not need to languish in shit tier in this day and age with matchups that are nigh unwinnable at a high level

This is a dated talking point IMO, if NRS would ever take the time to keep up regular balance and maintenance we could theoretically see a game like MK X where no character is handicapped by 7-3s or 8-2s like the other NRS titles feature

 

[tatterbug4]

Okay but there are some charcters that are efectly fine there just not top tier. Lots of people say millena is low tier but i don't care I still love her. One of my all time favs johnny cage is not even close to his mk9 version but I still play him.

I agree some characters are just fine as they are. But not everyone has your positive out look on things.

Wouldnt you want Johnny to be as good as he was in mk9? Everyone wants their character to be good. No one wants to swap their so loved mains. So they call for buffs so they can play their favorite character without worry that their character requires much harder play to get results than using a better character.

Including in mkx where your life can be taken so unfairly by a vortex. People will get aggravated by that and swap mains so they do that junk back.

 

[TerribleMatt]

I think the biggest thing here in terms of character viability is improving the different strengths of the characters. The more specific and different each character and each variation is, the more varied their match-ups will be and the more seemingly balanced the game will become. This way not every character will need to be top tier to be viable.

For instance, Raiden is a character whose game is largely based on keeping opponents in the corner, so giving some characters a variety of corner escape options will create some unfavourable matchups - reducing Raiden's overall viability slightly and increasing the viability of Raiden's counters (characters with safe, non-hitting wake-up teleports or armoured moves with advantage on block would essentially have a get out of jail free card)

The wider the variety of character strengths, the less important balance becomes, because even if there are characters that are slightly better than others, there are no universally powerful characters. What I'm talking is buffing very specific things on characters: make Jason's teleport super fast and safe; make Goro's damage output huge; make Kotal's pokes only -1 on block; make venomous D'vorah's poison ticks rack up damage better than combos would; buff Nagi Tanya's poke damage at the cost of some combo damage; buff command grabs across the board; give Lackey Torr non-ex armour on command throws. Changes like this will greatly increase the variety of dominant playstyles and change the way the game is played based on the match-ups. I don't claim to be an expert but I think changes like this are the best way to balance the game.

The bottom line is, don't try and give everyone all the tools to be the best character, give everyone a handful of solid tools that can give them the advantage if used appropriately in the match-up. Buff everyone in specific ways to make them a different character and not try and make everyone an equally good character.

 

[badb]

Can we make it Kung Lao? He died in 4ish MK games and I watched him die in the MK movie. If he dies so much it is stupid he is top tier....shouldn't he be the Dan of the MK series? He even died in MK 9.

 

[VenomX-90]

Nope, only bad players. Just like I said in the last thread.

 

[Schuyler]

I agree some characters are just fine as they are. But not everyone has your positive out look on things.

Wouldnt you want Johnny to be as good as he was in mk9? Everyone wants their character to be good. No one wants to swap their so loved mains. So they call for buffs so they can play their favorite character without worry that their character requires much harder play to get results than using a better character.

Including in mkx where your life can be taken so unfairly by a vortex. People will get aggravated by that and swap mains so they do that junk back.

NO cause some people would call him broken then. The only thing I wish johnny had was a faster d3 and be faster with his movement in general so he could actually be a rushdown character. But look at kitana prime. Kitana was horrible in the begging of this game and he stuck with her. And he did decent in esl with her and next level battle circuit. My point is people want there main characters to be top tier and it just cant happen. As long as your character isn't goro takeda or jaqui you shouldn't bitch.

 

[s_paulik87]

All about the player, SonicFox could win with Goro or Kano. This community just needs to quit being bitches. Look how far Milkysituation got at evo with Reptile. My case is rested.

 

[GAV]

Can we make it Kung Lao? He died in 4ish MK games and I watched him die in the MK movie. If he dies so much it is stupid he is top tier....shouldn't he be the Dan of the MK series? He even died in MK 9.

 

[ColdBoreMK23]

All about the player, SonicFox could win with Goro or Kano. This community just needs to quit being bitches. Look how far Milkysituation got at evo with Reptile. My case is rested.

BUT BUT BUT PEOPPE DIDNT KNOW THE MATCHUP!!

/sarcasm

 

[Amplified$hotz]

Having comparatively weaker characters is fine (Liu Kang). Having characters be just straight up bad is not fine (Goro).

This is all that needs to be said tbh.

 

[tatterbug4]

NO cause some people would call him broken then. The only thing I wish johnny had was a faster d3 and be faster with his movement in general so he could actually be a rushdown character. But look at kitana prime. Kitana was horrible in the begging of this game and he stuck with her. And he did decent in esl with her and next level battle circuit. My point is people want there main characters to be top tier and it just cant happen. As long as your character isn't goro takeda or jaqui you shouldn't bitch.

All characters are viable in this game. We've seen tons of bottom tier characters in top 8 placing tournaments.

My point is. Is that no one wants to be completely out gunned.

If more characters were buffed/nerfed some we would see more character diversity in tourney. Not like 4 tempest Laos.

Also wtf happened to the variation system. Half the characters have 1 good variation that is just insanely better than the other two. (wait Kung Jin has 2 other Variants?!)

Some characters have absolutely no reason to be used over some others

Examples.

Reptile is basically just a 50/50 knock down character that does like 19%. Always needs a bar. Pretty good mobility. Ex forceball isn't even all that great it's just safe.

Now compare this little review to Tanya..
I agree "we just saw reptile in top 8 Evo" again all characters are viable but some have no reason to play other than loyalty.

Note. Predators invisibility is way better than reptiles. (and has better set ups)
Ex spit is completely useless unlike erron blacks caltrops.

Apologies if I misspelt anything or went off topic I've only had 3 hours of sleep

 

[MadeOfMetal]

i respectfully disagree with your statement that bottom can stay bottom and the current system is working! if this is how its supposed to work then if i was a Goro/reptile/FT/Jacqui/Takeda/Kano player i wouldn't feel that was to fair.

basically certain characters have more tools, better range, better frames, better options than certain characters allow. so a match with same skilled players are separated by what each character is capable of doing. lets just say they did everything they where supposed to do! the better character will win the majority of sets!

this is not balanced or fair!

I feel that the bottom could be given at least the tools to become A tier, not super but respectable enough to fight back!

like tremor just needs options to get up, and options to get going. otherwise the momentum is always in opponents favour! thats not game changing just small changes to help him out!

i understand what you mean when someone wants a complete overhaul on there favourite character. i can only justify certain new characters to have a small tweak to get going, and see what that brings!

i can't wait for the huge Patch that is coming soon according to paulo!

 

[Mish]

but... but... if they aren't top tier they aren't worth playing!!1

 

[coolwhip]

I agree with OP.

People are like "but my character is only mid tier!" and I'm like... so? That's where ALL characters should be.

By definition, for mid tier to exist, there needs to be top and low tier (because mid tier falls...in the middle. Hence "mid"). Saying all characters should be mid makes no sense.

 

[I GOT HANDS]

By definition, for mid tier to exist, there needs to be top and low tier (because mid tier falls...in the middle. Hence "mid"). Saying all characters should be mid makes no sense.

At best, this is a wording technicality, but you are still mistaken. If everyone was perfectly balanced, everyone would be middle of the ladder when discussing tiering. Ideally, this is the direction "balancing" would take us.

 

[ABACABB]

I always wanted game where every character is as good as mk9 kabal. That would be hype !

 

[coolwhip]

At best, this is a wording technicality, but you are still mistaken. If everyone was perfectly balanced, everyone would be middle of the ladder when discussing tiering. Ideally, this is the direction "balancing" would take us.

At best, the above is unrealistic. There is no such thing as perfectly balanced. You don't even have to be a fighting game veteran to figure this out.

 

[THTB]

Having comparatively weaker characters is fine (Liu Kang)

 

[EmoScoobyDoo]

I'm writing this on my phone at 5am after taking my dog out so bare with me.


I think most people using the mid tier charaters are aware that thier characters are viable, and would be ok with them remaining in their current state. But that being said why wouldn't you want your character to be top tier. Yes lower tiers can compete with the exceptions of truly bad characters (sheeva mk9, dan sf) but why would you want to struggle more especially when previous examples say that after October we aren't getting anymore patches.

Look at pig for example, he loves kenshi but he feels that to truly compete he has to jump ship onto a better character. Do I think kenshi is a bad character? No, but I'm much more inclined to listen to pig since he has grinded so much with that character.

Another example is the Reptile community, most of them don't main him anymore (myself included) because when you play with him it feels like so much more of a struggle than it does with others. I think Reptile can compete as he is and nearly everyone else agrees (except blak fellow) and we all saw Milky situation prove that; but those same people also agree that if someone offered us a forceball buff or more differences in the variations we'd take them. So unless something like that happened which I don't think will, when i play a set I'm going to use Cassie first until you show you can stop me, then I'll hope you don't have experience with Reptile.

 

[Lumpymoomilk]

I may be wrong but the main difference I find between top and bottom tiers is ease of use. With low tier characters you have to adapt to the opponent, with top tiers you can usually just flowchart your way through most of your wins. No offense to top tier players but when you have one or 2 great set ups/reset/specials/strings/vortex or whatever that works against 90% of situations you\re going to keep doing it because you dont really have to do much else.

 

[StealthyMuffin]

Lol. Johnny maybe? That's not my actual opinion, btw. I chose characters that people wouldn't immediately dispute. I don't even think Goro is bottom 3, honestly. Who would you say is the middle of the cast?

 

[I GOT HANDS]

At best, the above is unrealistic. There is no such thing as perfectly balanced. You don't even have to be a fighting game veteran to figure this out.

Do you just enjoy disagreeing with me for the sake of it? Because I feel like this has been your goal every single time you've ever quoted me. What exactly is your argument here?

I never once said it was possible, in fact, my original wording was going to be "this is obviously impossible but the ideal direction we should aim to balance towards" but I figured it was redundant and implied with the words "IDEALLY this is the direction".

Obviously there is too many variables to make it likely, but just because we can't achieve "perfect" balance doesn't mean we can't get a lot closer to it.

 

[Me1andMe2]

I don’t really get that attitude sorry
why would I ever be contend with an unbalanced game. Now I know that perfect balance will never be achieved but this is NO reason to stop balancing.
If there are tiers there are problems. Tier-ing only makes sense if there is a notable difference between characters. You don’t put character a one tier higher just because he does 0.1% more dmg then character B.
Why say it is okay to have low tier chars? What is gained through it? Yeah you can pick, have fun and win them Mkx is no card game but if you look at it from a competitive aspect you reduce your chance of winning.
Edit:Spelling