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There has to be bad characters

Schuyler

Schuyler

Apprentice
I'm no fighting game expert this is just my opinion. The NRS community is known for begging for nerfs and buffs thought the FGC. I saw a post a couple days ago that said " what liu kang needs to be top tier". And I just thought to myself why the hell does he NEED to be top tier. Before I got into fighting games I played lots of sports games and FPS games. Sorry if I'm comparing apples to oranges but in call of duty not every gun is going to be "good". Just like in fighting games not every character can be super good. I heard somewhere that Killer Instinct didn't have that many characters so its well balanced. But MKX has like 30 characters including the DLC I think? I believe that every character should be viable. I also believe the better player should win at least most of the time. I think right now I feel only a couple charters NEED buffs in some of there variations.
Please let me know your opinion on this topic.

Sorry for posting this in the liu kang thread I know I'm about to sound stupid but I didn't know how to post a thread without putting it under a cretin character.
 
Robotic

Robotic

Gentleman.
I will provide a civil response since u took the time. In response:

Noted. What r u looking to accomplish in this post.
 
HeroesNZ

HeroesNZ

Baconlord's Billionaire Sugar Daddy
I agree, there's nothing wrong with a solid mid-tier character. However, thanks to frequent patches and past trends, people feel as though NRS only listens to the loudest & so to get the buffs they want, they have to complain. A lot. This obviously results in an incessant amount of complaining as I'm sure everyone's already aware of. Even those who play top-tiers complain about minor issues.

It doesn't help that those kinds of threads are front-paged even when riddled with misinformation and propaganda.
 
Enexemander

Enexemander

A Hitbox Pirate - YARRR -
I don't feel that your title and body text match.

There do not have to be "bad" characters. Ideally, you want all of your fighting game characters to be highly competitive. It's a very hard target to hit, and honestly I'm pretty impressed with how well NRS has accomplished this. Some characters could still use some help, but these are mostly hitbox/hurtbox issues in my opinion.

I don't think there's anything wrong with discussing what would make your favorite character in the S+ tier class as a thought exercise. It helps people think about the game in general. Like, what makes Tempest Lao one of the best characters in the game? What makes Takeda largely considered to be one of the worst? What changes could be make to change these around that are realistic? I'm cool with discussing that. This is after all a discussion board. That's the point.

I think if you wanted to get some salty responses, you should have posted this in the widely agreed to be lower tier forums, like Goro or Takeda. Making the case to them that some characters need to be bad.... well, let's just say I'd expect the knives to come out.
 
Robotic

Robotic

Gentleman.
HeroesNZ said:
I agree, there's nothing wrong with a solid mid-tier character. However, thanks to frequent patches and past trends, people feel as though NRS only listens to the loudest & so to get the buffs they want, they have to complain. A lot. This obviously results in an incessant amount of complaining as I'm sure everyone's already aware of. Even those who play top-tiers complain about minor issues.

It doesn't help that those kinds of threads are front-paged even when riddled with misinformation and propaganda.
Click to expand...
Yet it goes to show this post is fresh from the dept of redundancy dept. It's why I'm genuinely asking what OP's purpose is, no disrespect.
 
ZigZag

ZigZag

That Welsh Guy
I read the title then the forum it was in and was ready to blow someone the fuck up.
But I read the thread first and thought surely this has to be a mistake... I see why you've done it now, don't worry when some changes came to the forum I was also a little lost for where the general MKX area was too.
 
AK Black Preon

AK Black Preon

Kombatant
I know games will have characters that will be bad by design and some broken by design. Some characters are right on the cusp of both so small changes can flip their script completely. Injustice Bane & Scorpion. MK9 Sub Zero when he lost those OTGs. Yet here's cyrax allower to keep his.

The only thing I don't like is when 2 characters have similar or exact same levels of BS allowing them to do the same tech. But only ONE gets nerfed. Or two cha racers have the exact same issue but only one gets fixed. Imagine if in MKX all the whiffing mids were corrected all but Johnny Cage's? Cage players just gotta deal? That's the lame stuff.

Also in a game with inconsistent hitboxes, crazy air game, 40% 1 bar combos, Armor everywhere, & inconsistent damage scaling across the cast.... lol Unbreakable Sub Zero's Funeral Konfirmed. But if you buffed his parry to stop air attacks, gave it antiaircraft properties, and made it safer as some proposed these slight changes.. even just one give you a brand new UNB Sub.

Nothing new here though. Semi off topic but Goro mains. What would you even want to fix the Saiya- er... I mean Shokan Prince?
 
Baconlord

Baconlord

Proud follower of the church of Cetrion
In shooters it's okay for a gun to be bad because it's just a gun. In fighting games we get attached to our favorite characters whether it be because of there desing, personality, or gameplay so when they are not that good it kind of sucks. And what's so unreasonable about asking for everyone to be viable.
 
GAV

GAV

Resolution through knowledge and resolve.
The OP's point is fair. There is a lot of lobbying going on here.

I still rebuff most of them. Most posters do - and they should.

As I'm understanding the game more, I'm able to better see what they are asking for...

Its usually that they had an idea of how something worked - and should work - and they find out it doesn't work that way.

If its not that, it is often them not looking for buffs per se', but a deeper experience within their character - like a way to expand their skills that will actually pay dividends - like a way to extend combos - or a better combo starter to get them there.

Lastly, you have those just looking for an edge. They'll take whatever they can get, but they generally say the character needs this or that just because they are not top tier. They don't necessarily want to learn or adapt, but they will if they have to. They just want to move up the ranks through character empowerment. They don't care about balance beyond basic public perception. They just want their character to suit all their needs.

The last two can be hard to differentiate between. The former tends to ask while the latter tends to demand. The formers gives ideas as suggestions while the latter gives ideas as what must be done. Look for the tone. The former would appreciate while the latter is entitled. If you play the character and know what they're asking for (and aren't an entitled douche), you can generally see whether they're looking out for the greater good or just themselves.
 
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tatterbug4

tatterbug4

Bug of tater's
If someone mains a character and that character is bad. Of course they want him to be buffed. you want to have a fair advantage against your friends.

We can't just pick a different gun like CoD. We have a thing for being a character loyalist and sadly that's why everyone picks top tier
 
Spunio

Spunio

Worst Reptile in Spring Hill
I'd like to add that fighting games aren't as black and white as other games (especially not as simple as shooters.) There are tons of variables, even moreso now that variations are a thing, so every character in every match up has to be tweaked to the point where they don't absolutely dominate the other.

The only point I agree on is that not every character NEEDS to be top tier, but on the same coin there doesn't HAVE to be bad characters.

Like what HeroesNZ said, it's all about who has the biggest voice at this point. I sorely wish it was more about the frame data, since numbers don't lie. I have a friend who mains Raiden, and recently Raiden has been nerfed twice and is entering a dangerous territory of becoming a useless character. I'd say that Sub Zero is already there based off of multiple threads/videos I've gone through. I've seen him hit 20 hit combos that only dealt 20%. That's 1% per hit, which is absolutely terrible. Not to mention the hitbox nerfs, frame start ups, etc.

Another sad fact is that not all characters are going to get the love they deserve, that's just how it is. Some characters who don't need love, but need a little downward tweaking will also fall through the cracks since people are complaining about the wrong things (i.e. Liu Kang NEEDING to be top tier.)

Best thing I'd say anyone can do is to just learn to adapt to the changes being made to your characters, and if it's a really bad change like what Sub Zero and Raiden have been going through, I'd say either stick with it(loyalist,) or find the closest thing to that character and pick them up. Chances are they won't stay that way forever. Eventually they'll be brought back to their glory.
 
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Schuyler

Schuyler

Apprentice
tatterbug4 said:
If someone mains a character and that character is bad. Of course they want him to be buffed. you want to have a fair advantage against your friends.

We can't just pick a different gun like CoD. We have a thing for being a character loyalist and sadly that's why everyone picks top tier
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Okay but there are some charcters that are efectly fine there just not top tier. Lots of people say millena is low tier but i don't care I still love her. One of my all time favs johnny cage is not even close to his mk9 version but I still play him.
 
JJV Phoenix

JJV Phoenix

I'm not Vak goddamnit
Everyone wants their character to be viable, and I don't think that's unreasonable. There's no reason people who've mained Goro and Takeda since day 1 should be bodied by "just picked up Shinnok this week" players unless there's some massive skill divide, and with a time gap like that it's unlikely.

Variations are a different story, some of those were dead in the water on arrival.
 
Hini

Hini

Batomancer
Disagree, there has to be top, mid and low tier, but there doesnt need to be bad characters. There should ideally be less disparity between top tier characters and low tier characters.

For me a bad character is one that really doesnt have shit, they dont have to have as many tools as top tier, but they need to have something, and that something should be at least be good and respectable.

Also asking for buffs or making ideal changelists is fine, its when people start demanding things that it gets a little bit silly. No one should strive for mediocrity, but should at least be perfectly comfortable with it.
 
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Syzoth

Syzoth

The last Saurian from Zaterra - Syzoth - Reptile
Spunio said:
I'd like to add that fighting games aren't as black and white as other games (especially not as simple as shooters.) There are tons of variables, even moreso now that variations are a thing, so every character in every match up has to be tweaked to the point where they don't absolutely dominate the other.

The only point I agree on is that not every character NEEDS to be top tier, but on the same coin there doesn't HAVE to be bad characters.

Like what HeroesNZ said, it's all about who has the biggest voice at this point. I sorely wish it was more about the frame data, since numbers don't lie. I have a friend who mains Raiden, and recently Raiden has been nerfed twice and is entering a dangerous territory of becoming a useless character. I'd say that Sub Zero is already there based off of multiple threads/videos I've gone through. I've seen him hit 20 hit combos that only dealt 20%. That's 1% per hit, which is absolutely terrible. Not to mention the hitbox nerfs, frame start ups, etc.

Another sad fact is that not all characters are going to get the love they deserve, that's just how it is. Some characters who don't need love, but need a little downward tweaking will also fall through the cracks since people are complaining about the wrong things (i.e. Liu Kang NEEDING to be top tier.)

Best thing I'd say anyone can do is to just learn to adapt to the changes being made to your characters, and if it's a really bad change like what Sub Zero and Raiden have been going through, I'd say either stick with it(loyalist,) or find the closest thing to that character and pick them up. Chances are they won't stay that way forever. Eventually they'll be brought back to their glory.
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Maybe Raiden has 20 hit combos that do 20% because for 2 buttons you can get 10 hits of electricity D:

Schuyler said:
Really cause in AW I either see the BAL or the other smg that looks like the tommy gun I forgot.
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They aren't attached to the weapon. They're choosing the statistically best one and using it nonstop cause it's the best. As soon as there's a nerf/buff they switch weapons.
 
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