There’s No Input Delay Difference Between 200ms Ping and 50ms Ping!

[Juggs]

The ping in MK11 isn’t delay based, meaning there’s no difference in input delay between 50ms ping and 200ms ping. I came across this information when asking what ping the “offline input delay” was simulating. Apparently it simulates 3 frames of input delay, which is the most you will encounter playing online.

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1138243370562854913

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1138546701642416134

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1138556830139998210

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1138556000619958272

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1138557304259977217

This info is not only valuable, but super interesting to me. I recommend checking out the video that @Dizzy linked. Also props to @THTB for the info as well!

Here’s the video:

 

[x TeeJay o]

so practicing with the delay on is useful as i thought? cool

 

[big j gleez]

Interesting. I feel the frame skips are more apparent in MK11 than in both MKX and Injustice 2. It makes it really difficult to hit confirm at times when it shows a move hits for a few frames, but then shows that it is actually blocked. Forward advancing moves end up right in your face off frame skips also.

I would love a search filter for region, connection type, and connection strength to help alleviate this. I think that would work out really well.

 

[Juggs]

so practicing with the delay on is useful as i thought? cool

Yes, been doing it ever since I found out. It helps A LOT. Like it’s kinda insane, I’m no longer afraid to play in delay, lol

 

[x TeeJay o]

Yes, been doing it ever since I found out. It helps A LOT. Like it’s kinda insane, I’m no longer afraid to play in delay, lol

yeah ive always had it on since mkx. saw no reason not too after they said that unless im playing offline alot. glad they cleared it up further

 

[james1926]

There may be no input delay difference but at 200 ms your opponent was not in the position you thought he was when you pressed your buttons, which makes this netcode useless with high ping connections. Anything above 120-130 is unplayable in my experience.

 

[Juggs]

yeah ive always had it on since mkx. saw no reason not too after they said that unless im playing offline alot. glad they cleared it up further

Yeah especially with Jacqui. Her standard BnB where you have to hit f12 twice is definitely way different offline than online. It was super hard to consistently do online unless I had been playing online all day. Once I started practicing with the delay, I hit it very consistently online. Also, everything feels better online now, even general movement.

 

[LawAbidingCitizen]

Then the netcode isn't functioning properly because 100ms to 200ms connections have more than 6f delay either visual or input. Counterpoking(3-5f), anti airs, flawless block (3f), hailing from D1 (1-7f window), frame traps (1-5f window) Staggers all don't work properly online.
I feel like anything above 100ms is not up to competitive standards and players get away with stuff not possible offline, certain moves that are -10 to -17 are not punishable online when I can punish offline with 5-9frames to spare.

Can he explain this?

 

[gitblame]

Then the netcode isn't functioning properly because 100ms to 200ms connections have more than 6f delay either visual or input. Counterpoking(3-5f), anti airs, flawless block (3f), hailing from D1 (1-7f window), frame traps (1-5f window) Staggers all don't work properly online.
I feel like anything above 100ms is not up to competitive standards and players get away with stuff not possible offline, certain moves that are -10 to -17 are not punishable online when I can punish offline with 5-9frames to spare.

Can he explain this?

Again. What you experience and why higher ping feels muddy and worse than lower ping has nothing to do with delay. It's the rollback. Most basically; game keeps rolling back to correct state based on gamepad info it receives from client. If connection is bad, more frames can be rolled back and it will be more often. That's why sometimes you will feel you are missing your frames. It's because constant rollbacks you are not seeing in naked eye.

Also higher ping in that case does not always translates to bad connection. Ping is just delay in ms between your clients. What really makes problem in that scenario is when connection is not stable. Sometimes you will experience 180ms matches being better than 140 ms matches if 180 is more stable. When it lost its stabillity more frames needs to be rolled back and it can be really noticeable.

 

[Eddy Wang]

When i tried to play THTB with a i couldn't react to his jumping boomerangs, while with Error there were moments where the response was better and then it became worse.

 

[LawAbidingCitizen]

Again. What you experience and why higher ping feels muddy and worse than lower ping has nothing to do with delay. It's the rollback. Most basically; game keeps rolling back to correct state based on gamepad info it receives from client. If connection is bad, more frames can be rolled back and it will be more often. That's why sometimes you will feel you are missing your frames. It's because constant rollbacks you are not seeing in naked eye.

Also higher ping in that case does not always translates to bad connection. Ping is just delay in ms between your clients. What really makes problem in that scenario is when connection is not stable. Sometimes you will experience 180ms matches being better than 140 ms matches if 180 is more stable. When it lost its stabillity more frames needs to be rolled back and it can be really noticeable.

Yeah but there is a delay I know its supposed to be static 3f but that's only when the connection is solid. Most connections are WiFi and fluctuate constantly and that's a problem for Rollback GGOP. It has its benefits but it definitely has its drawbacks and fluctuating ping is one of them. It also has to transfer all the data, high res animations, KBs, inputs, all has a specific time to get from client to server and back and that's what Ping is, nothing changes that it just makes us feel like its solid when it is delayed.

Best case scenario the ping is constant all match and it has no problem with graphics and data being 3f static delay.

Worst case ping fluctuates making the rollback work harder and you get 12f and up delay.

I think the netcode is the best we have had but its still worlds apart from offline. Reaction, just frame links, jailing, Frame traps, tight links all become impossible online and it doesn't end there, basically anything high level goes out the window in average connections. I'm a strictly offline player but I do have fun online I just don't take it seriously.

 

[Qwark28]

How is this not common knowledge? It's not a delay based netcode, it's GGPO like, of course there wouldn't be input lag.

This type of netcode is based on rollbacks. You've been playing on it for 4 fucking years lol, it has existed in the fgc since fightcade and the biggest debut was KI in 2013.

 

[gitblame]

Yeah but there is a delay I know its supposed to be static 3f but that's only when the connection is solid. Most connections are WiFi and fluctuate constantly and that's a problem for Rollback GGOP. It has its benefits but it definitely has its drawbacks and fluctuating ping is one of them. It also has to transfer all the data, high res animations, KBs, inputs, all has a specific time to get from client to server and back and that's what Ping is, nothing changes that it just makes us feel like its solid when it is delayed.

Best case scenario the ping is constant all match and it has no problem with graphics and data being 3f static delay.

Worst case ping fluctuates making the rollback work harder and you get 12f and up delay.

I think the netcode is the best we have had but its still worlds apart from offline. Reaction, just frame links, jailing, Frame traps, tight links all become impossible online and it doesn't end there, basically anything high level goes out the window in average connections. I'm a strictly offline player but I do have fun online I just don't take it seriously.

Yes. That's the flaw of ggpo. If conneciton is spiking, it feels worse than the same scenario in delayed based netcode. But I take it over any time. If I were playing from Poland my friends from USA in delayed based netcode we would have to hold that 7-10 frame delay and we would probably never play with each other. Now we have 180 ping / stable 3 f of delay and even if it's hard to call it tournament viable connection is more than playable and we can enjoy the game together.

 

[x TeeJay o]

How is this not common knowledge? It's not a delay based netcode, it's GGPO like, of course there wouldn't be input lag.

This type of netcode is based on rollbacks. You've been playing on it for 4 fucking years lol, it has existed in the fgc since fightcade and the biggest debut was KI in 2013.

And KI Still has the best netcode of any fighter to date.

 

[Qwark28]

Yes. That's the flaw of ggpo. If conneciton is spiking, it feels worse than the same scenario in delayed based netcode. But I take it over any time. If I were playing from Poland my friends from USA in delayed based netcode we would have to hold that 7-10 frame delay and we would probably never play with each other. Now we have 180 ping / stable 3 f of delay and even if it's hard to call it tournament viable connection is more than playable and we can enjoy the game together.

180 ping is 11.2f of delay, although "xyz frames of delay/lag" is not the right way to address what's happening.

16ms = 1f of lag in a 60 fps game.

 

[Scoot Magee]

Why cant we have less than 3 frames in low ping games?

Most games with rollback allow you to set the delay preferences depending on the pings you play in. Being forced to play with 3 frames of lag in low ping is retarded.

We should be able to set delay to 0 and avoid high pings if that's our preference. It would eliminate the difference between offline and online timing.

 

[THTB]

There may be no input delay difference but at 200 ms your opponent was not in the position you thought he was when you pressed your buttons, which makes this netcode useless with high ping connections. Anything above 120-130 is unplayable in my experience.

The big thing to keep in mind with rollback is that it's not going to completely solve a problematic connection to your opponent. The idea of rollback is that, instead of having delayed inputs, the game simulates a game instance based on your inputs. Ideally, the connection should be at a point where, if there are any frames cut from simulation, they are minimal at worst, and thus increasing the threshold of a playable game beyond something like 40-50ms of latency. Considering some players from the westernmost parts of EU can get roughly 130ms connections with a good portion of the Eastern NA, specifically the UK, it opens up a large amount of viable connections. At high latency, it's gonna suck, whether the netplay is lockstep or rollback.

 

[james1926]

The big thing to keep in mind with rollback is that it's not going to completely solve a problematic connection to your opponent. The idea of rollback is that, instead of having delayed inputs, the game simulates a game instance based on your inputs. Ideally, the connection should be at a point where, if there are any frames cut from simulation, they are minimal at worst, and thus increasing the threshold of a playable game beyond something like 40-50ms of latency. Considering some players from the westernmost parts of EU can get roughly 130ms connections with a good portion of the Eastern NA, specifically the UK, it opens up a large amount of viable connections. At high latency, it's gonna suck, whether the netplay is lockstep or rollback.

I agree that the rollback netcode increases the threshold of playable games up to around 130 ms. However I think the old netcode was actually better on anything higher, because despite the lag, all games were stable on that lag (at least with wire connections).

NRS needs to change the minimum ping on ranked to 120 instead of 150.

 

[THTB]

I agree that the rollback netcode increases the threshold of playable games up to around 130 ms. However I think the old netcode was actually better on anything higher, because despite the lag, all games were stable on that lag (at least with wire connections).

NRS needs to change the minimum ping on ranked to 120 instead of 150.

Stability on visuals means nothing if you aren't able to react to 30f moves because the delay is so high.

 

[gitblame]

Why cant we have less than 3 frames in low ping games?

Most games with rollback allow you to set the delay preferences depending on the pings you play in. Being forced to play with 3 frames of lag in low ping is (soap bar in my mouth).

We should be able to set delay to 0 and avoid high pings if that's our preference. It would eliminate the difference between offline and online timing.

Because those 3 frames are foundation of rollback developed by nrs. Watch video in first post to understand what is going on. What you wish for is having both, delayed based netcode and rollback and switching between them based on connection and distance. It's not possible.

 

[Mikemetroid]

How is this not common knowledge? It's not a delay based netcode, it's GGPO like, of course there wouldn't be input lag.

This type of netcode is based on rollbacks. You've been playing on it for 4 fucking years lol, it has existed in the fgc since fightcade and the biggest debut was KI in 2013.

True GGPO lets you adjust those frames. Its not static.

 

[Scoot Magee]

Because those 3 frames are foundation of rollback developed by nrs. Watch video in first post to understand what is going on. What you wish for is having both, delayed based netcode and rollback and switching between them based on connection and distance. It's not possible.

But its been done multiple times so it is possible.

Ggpo offers the option to lower rollback in higher ping matches by increasing the amount of input lag. This is pretty much what nrs is doing but they have the input lag locked at 3.

 

[Badboy Takuma]

How is this not common knowledge?

it is though

 

[gitblame]

But its been done multiple times so it is possible.

Care to give an example?

 

[Scoot Magee]

Care to give an example?

I edited my original post but here are examples.

Fightcade
Sf hdremix
Mvc2
Marvel collection
Darkstalkers collection
Skull girls
Sf30th anniversary

Even beatemups like final fight double impact and etc have a way to raise or reduce frame lag.