The Top Tier Narrative and Superman

[Fromundaman]

Joker and Batgirl mostly rely on looped setups in the corner to kill opponents, ie short kind of damaging combos into a setup that can be blocked, whereas when Superman is doing his high damage in the corner it's one combo

I'm a Joker main; I know this. I also know that I can hit 56% off of a block infinite.
I can do 40-50ish off of OTG resets and armored unblockables.

BG does about 50% as well and loops back into itself.

Yes Supes can get 10-ish% extra (20-30 if you're willing to burn a lot of meter), but does it really matter when you die in 2 touches regardless? I mean the only time it will make a difference is if you carried them to the corner with 60% left.

I would honestly say the ease with which Supes can carry to the corner is more important than the 10% extra he might get than other characters.

 

[Youphemism]

I'm a Joker main; I know this. I also know that I can hit 56% off of a block infinite.
I can do 40-50ish off of OTG resets and armored unblockables.

BG does about 50% as well and loops back into itself.

Yes Supes can get 10-ish% extra (20-30 if you're willing to burn a lot of meter), but does it really matter when you die in 2 touches regardless? I mean the only time it will make a difference is if you carried them to the corner with 60% left.

I would honestly say the ease with which Supes can carry to the corner is more important than the 10% extra he might get than other characters.

There's no such thing as unblockables in this game, just really hard to block stuff

I'm not saying Supes isn't good man, that's what it seems like you think I'm saying but I might be wrong, main point is is that he's good but not as good as before

 

[Fromundaman]

There's no such thing as unblockables in this game, just really hard to block stuff

I'm not saying Supes isn't good man, that's what it seems like you think I'm saying but I might be wrong, main point is is that he's good but not as good as before

I'm aware of this. Few fighting games do have true unblockables, but they might as well be, and it's a hell of a lot easier than typing "Hard-to-block"-able, but okay, just for you:

I'm a Joker main; I know this. I also know that I can hit 56% off of a block infinite.
I can do 40-50ish off of OTG resets and armored "hard-to-block"-ables.

At the base, you were saying that this stuff (Characters with ridiculous corner setups killing in one shot) "usually doesn't happen" and that it's hypothetical, when this stuff is absolutely and completely practical and there is ton of tournament footage showing this.

 

[4x4lo8o]

I'm not convinced that any character has a better corner game than Superman

 

[AK Stormthegates]

I'm not convinced that any character has a better corner game than Superman

Wonderwoman because she takes less risks for the same thing.

 

[4x4lo8o]

Zatannas rings? Ares mb fireball? (it's hard/awkward to jump anyway) And doing Ravens fireball into grab isn't dashable in between

Dude, Ares MB Fireball is easier to jump than Heat Zap, costs a bar of meter, and has a shit ton of recovery and is easy to punish if you jump it(whereas heat zap has no recovery and can't be punished if you jump it). Haha, the worst part is that one of Ares other projectile

Wonderwoman because she takes less risks for the same thing.

She doesn't get the same thing though.
Superman gets a guaranteed 50/50(which always leads to another full corner combo on hit) after a 50% + combo. The 50/50 attempt is guaranteed, the opponent can't do anything other than block and pray. Wonder Woman doesn't have that.

She can go for a cross up/non-cross up otg but that might not be ambiguous(in my experience you can see it, but if someone insists I'm wrong I'm willing to take that back), she has to commit to spending a bar of meter, and if she crosses you up she puts you out of the corner and doesn't get much damage.

Alternatively she can go for the otg and take the frame advantage on block and use that for a mix up, but that doesn't give her a 50/50 either. Depending on the height of her dive bomb either the spacing is wrong and she can't do the low half of the 50/50 or she doesn't get enough advantage and you can poke out of the overhead. She has other stuff she can throw in to beat that, but it all hits mid so it dilutes the guessing game in favor of the opponent. On top of that the opponent can pushblock the divepunch before the guessing game even starts.

So yeah, she's safer(and she definitely has a great corner game, I'm not arguing about that) but she can't lock you into a deadly guessing game the way Superman is. You have ways to minimize your risk.(I know she has a bunch of other options, but everything else doesn't eliminate wake ups and leaves at least one option outside of block right/die)

It's also not like Superman has poor options if he wants to play it safe. He loses his 50/50, but he can simply take his full damage, bait the wake up as appropriate based on situation/match up, and if that doesn't net him anything he can go into his extremely good corner footsies from there. For most of the cast simply having you back against a corner while Superman is standing in f2 range is practically a mixup

 

[KDZ]

And MB sweeping laser is never punishable

I punished it just last week at the break to win a match :^)

 

[KDZ]

Dude, Ares MB Fireball is easier to jump than Heat Zap, costs a bar of meter, and has a shit ton of recovery and is easy to punish if you jump it(whereas heat zap has no recovery and can't be punished if you jump it). Haha, the worst part is that one of Ares other projectile



She doesn't get the same thing though.
Superman gets a guaranteed 50/50(which always leads to another full corner combo on hit) after a 50% + combo. The 50/50 attempt is guaranteed, the opponent can't do anything other than block and pray. Wonder Woman doesn't have that.

She can go for a cross up/non-cross up otg but that might not be ambiguous(in my experience you can see it, but if someone insists I'm wrong I'm willing to take that back), she has to commit to spending a bar of meter, and if she crosses you up she puts you out of the corner and doesn't get much damage.

Alternatively she can go for the otg and take the frame advantage on block and use that for a mix up, but that doesn't give her a 50/50 either. Depending on the height of her dive bomb either the spacing is wrong and she can't do the low half of the 50/50 or she doesn't get enough advantage and you can poke out of the overhead. She has other stuff she can throw in to beat that, but it all hits mid so it dilutes the guessing game in favor of the opponent. On top of that the opponent can pushblock the divepunch before the guessing game even starts.

So yeah, she's safer(and she definitely has a great corner game, I'm not arguing about that) but she can't lock you into a deadly guessing game the way Superman is. You have ways to minimize your risk.(I know she has a bunch of other options, but everything else doesn't eliminate wake ups and leaves at least one option outside of block right/die)

It's also not like Superman has poor options if he wants to play it safe. He loses his 50/50, but he can simply take his full damage, bait the wake up as appropriate based on situation/match up, and if that doesn't net him anything he can go into his extremely good corner footsies from there. For most of the cast simply having you back against a corner while Superman is standing in f2 range is practically a mixup

Uhhh some characters might have simpler, or higher damage mixups, but...
Wonder Woman has most likely the most bullshit corner game you'll ever see

1. A crossup otg that's +on block,
2. A non-crossup otg that lands on the crossup side that's +on block,
3. A crossup overhead thats +on block, goes into 40% on hit placing you in the same mixup
4. A non-crossup that has the same startup animation as the crossup that's +on block, goes into 45% on hit placing you in the same mixup,
5. A crossup special that's heavily +on block, goes into a 40% combo placing you in the same mixup,
6. A non-crossup special that's - only punishable by D2's, because if you go for anything else it reverses your positioning and you whiff to get punished, and on hit placing you in the same mixup
7. A standard overhead into mixup, safe on block, 35% on hit while placing you in the same mixup,
8. A low that's +on block, 40% on hit while placing you in the same mixup,

You have a terrible, terrible choice to make