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The problems and issues that break Kotal Kahn

Mandolore1123

Man of Science Who Wields the Living Lightning
My 5 cents for NRS gods (if they are watching this thread). I agree on most issues described in longposts here.
  1. His only jail after D1 poke is s2 and d2. But it is so damn hard to land s2 and s2 has range issues. I think his d1 must jail into s1 on hit. And what's the point having d3 only +6 on hit when every move is that slow? And d4 should also jail in something scary. D4 into dash into f1 is not that reliable at all. Could that jail into b22?
  2. His f4 has good pushback on standing opponent, but it leaves in range of opponents poke if they were crouching
  3. His parry is so damn shit. Besides occasional cancel into parry for 'mental frame advantage' there is not much use of it. While other parries do damage, combos, suck life.. Kotal's one barely gives him any frame advantage. 2 fast hits will even crash parry completely (like Cassie's standing pistols). Startup is ass slow for a parry being at 14 frames. As it was said here, it is one of his signature moves and is so unreliable
  4. Would like to have a bit more safe setups for godray and totem
  5. Both kitties are so high risk low reward, that isn't even fun. Diagonal kitty with ability to choose a jump range would be great. Being able to amplify it on block would be great. Immunity for projectiles during roll would be also great.
  6. Agree, damage totem has more sense to have. Kotal is not kinda character who can reasonably trade or apply safe pokes, or mixup to dish out some damage to feed his totem. If I want reliable source of healing he has godray. If I want stack totems for higher blood return I need to stay at the same place. How then it differs from godray? Otherwise there should be a setup for a totem, that leaves opponent upclose for guessing game.
  7. Straight kitty is +12 on Hit and knockdown is pretty far away I must say. Only f2 can make some sort of frametrap. I usually prefer to use df2 instead - it has better advantage on knockdown and ability to switch sides. If only kitty could be used kinda scorpion teleport, with instant projectile immunity and fast startup, it existence would have sense for me. Otherwise it exists just for the sake of mercy brutality. Must say that at fullscreen opponent is able to block straight kitty and full combo punish? Isn't it exactly that case when it supposed to be used??
  8. Unblockable is a joke against skilled opponent even after 121 knockdown
  9. KB requirement on slow ass df2 move is shit. How you suppose to AA somebody with that move? I thought about mixing it up with his unblockable, but animation and speed is too different
  10. Wish s4 stay cancellable as it was day 1...
Isn’t the advantage of straight cat being it put Kotal back in the range where he excels the most? In addition of being the highest damaging ender. Not saying your suggestions are bad. I’m just confused as to whether cat or sword is the better ender. I think if totem and god ray were buffed to be safer on set-up then Totemic would be quite powerful with constantly regenerating health. Which would be great
 

Lanqu

Noob
Thank you for response, I see your point. However, I'd like to see arguments, instead of just 'bad'.
If you have more advantage on hit you free to choose whatever position you want. You can wavedash to the same position cat puts you in.
Yes cat does a bit more damage than non amp sword and travels 1 dash further. But if you amp sword than it does more damage. Anyway there are not that much ways to spend meter either. And in the game where wake ups are so powerful, I'd choose to have more advantage on hit, so that I can setup more safe followups.
 
I'm gonna be picking up KK today at my local gathering, and just from what little I've labbed let me just say thank you for emphasizing his hitbox inconsistency when everyone else just dismisses his only flaws being "hurr durr no mids". It's one thing to lack tools in neutral, it's another thing entirely to have your tools just fail to work at all like they're supposed to when you do connect with them.
 

Lanqu

Noob
I agree, that's one of the main his issues. Look Sonya - she has easy peasy conversion from anything. Nothing whiffs. Her d3 being 7 frame also lowprofiles Kotal's d1. And what I really like about her is that her string jails one into another. If kotal's d3 being 9 frames could frametrap into his 10 and 13-14 frame moves, it would be so much easier to play.
Basically Kotal has his d4 and b4 that can be used to establish closeup game and frametraps. Yes, it is not ideal moves to have but it is at least something to make your opponent hesitate to mash d2.
Don't use f4 until you make people stay against kotal, otherwise you endup right at their face where your d1 can be beat by almost anybody from the cast with their poke
However f4 is good at catching people jumping out from knockdown. Advantage on hit can be converted into unblockable sword setup or godray against not that skilled opp. Skilled opponent will full combo punish you on right read of such setup.
 

armani

Noob
other than hitbox inconsistencies, I think that kotals design was kind of on purpose, as much of the roster has similar pros and cons to their setplay. as far as bigger picture goes, if we all had perfectly adjusted and equipped characters, I think that it would take away the rewarding feeling you get in some of those clutch situations (as a kitana main I can say this 1000%)

while I do think characters like sub, erron, & geras kind of avoid this strong-in-one-area vs. flawed-in-another rule that’s seen repeated in characters like kotal, cetrion, kitana, frost, etc. I feel like we should let it play out. also keep in mind that the flawless block mechanic hasn’t been explored 100% and that it might really change how the game plays in a few months. so yeah.. I mean let it play out.

I don’t think kotal is fine by any means, but with his range on certain moves, tick throws, and unblockable setups (I think lol) he has some tools to get the job done. I just don’t want NRS screwing up their game with a bunch of adjustments on the wrong things.
 
  1. KB requirement on slow ass df2 move is shit. How you suppose to AA somebody with that move? I thought about mixing it up with his unblockable, but animation and speed is too different
this is my main problem with kotal. he has some decent anti air options, so if you could still get the KB from a standing 1/2/3/4 into df+2 it'd be pretty nice. it doesn't even launch so it's not like it'd be OP. Hell, even if i flawless block + up+2 a jump-in into f12, df+2 for the KB it doesn't work, and its a resource heavy punish! WTH?!?!?! oh well i guess i'm not playing kotal until he gets some quality of life buffs.

the main ones i'd like to see are:
  1. Being able to combo df+2 for the KB because by itself it'll never happen.
  2. faster recovery on totems/godray
  3. hitbox issues with jaguar/making jaguar invulnerability more practical.
  4. parry is just ass remove it from the game for something else lol.
 
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parry is just ass remove it from the game for something else lol
This. I've managed to give it some niche use in negating multi-hit projectiles and fast strings by holding block while the parry is out. You'll instantly block the following hit after the parry no matter how quickly it follows.

Still doesn't change the fact that the move is utter trash, and makes going from crouch to F1 an accidental parry sometimes. I despise that.
 

LawAbidingCitizen

MD| Soberless FGC
the main ones i'd like to see are:
  1. Being able to combo df+2 for the KB because by itself it'll never happen.
  2. faster recovery on totems/godray
  3. hitbox issues with jaguar/making jaguar invulnerability more practical.
  4. parry is just ass remove it from the game for something else lol.
I Think his hitbox issues need to be addressed before anything else.
D1/s1/2 has horrible range and wiffs after anything on block or even counter pokes.
Command grab, F1 need hitbox adjustments so they don't wiff.
These issues plague his close up game and remove fundamental play from Kotal.

Then I'd like his KB's and Specials fixed
 

DoctorSexual

XBL: DoctorSexual PSN: Osh-Tek
How about reducing the fucking recovery on DF2 after hit to make this bitch more viable online. Maybe its me but I cannot get the timing of F11 after DF2 flawlessly online.

Its not that damn complicated, I shouldnt be dropping the damn combo every time because the damn window after he recovers from the DF2 and the opponent is in the air high enough is like 2 frames.

I have no problem with it offline, its just when im playing online that its ever an issue.

Its like damn we have one way to get consistent damage, at least make it viable online.
 

Qwark28

Joker waiting room
How about reducing the fucking recovery on DF2 after hit to make this bitch more viable online. Maybe its me but I cannot get the timing of F11 after DF2 flawlessly online.

Its not that damn complicated, I shouldnt be dropping the damn combo every time because the damn window after he recovers from the DF2 and the opponent is in the air high enough is like 2 frames.

I have no problem with it offline, its just when im playing online that its ever an issue.

Its like damn we have one way to get consistent damage, at least make it viable online.
You can do dash 12 instead, much easier for 0.9% less dmg.
 
I dropped Kotal at launch after messing with him, came back and yep, even after a few weeks he is still garbage. Props to you dudes sticking by him, I only use him for novelty at this point.

D1 is trash, command grab is trash and is only a threat in the poke meta and to anyone who has 0 MU experience - an iconic move that should be a huge part of his gameplan... even whiffs on a blocked (9f) D3 from any range that's not right on top of them where D1 is the better option lol. There really should be additonal tick grab options for this move, given they can jump out for a full combo punish.

He is without a doubt the worst in the game now competitively, 22f mid (lol) and most of his buttons are just plain bad. F3 is kinda alright I guess. I am a huge fan of the character and I can't wait for him to be fixed. Why the hell is kahn-cut not baseline? Ugh.

For such a cool character with a decent backstory (bodied goro and gorback, heaps of other stuff which should have put him way up in terms of power), man was a complete jobber in the story and really not good gameplay wise right now. They did the Kahns dirty :(
 

Blade4693

Where you’re going, every day is Halloween.
I think we can all agree the box issues need to be fixed asap. That isn't even a balance change, just something that needs to be fixed.

I also would like it if we could choose which side we toss the opponent on his ex command grab, I believe Kollector gets to choose sides on his db3? I know that isn't his command grab but still. Also if that is considered a buff please for the LOVE OF THE ELDER GODS DO NOT CHANGE IT TO A DBF INPUT!!! Just please don't do that no matter what lol I hate those, I rather do half circles than that crap.
 

dc1902

Noob
  1. KB requirement on slow ass df2 move is shit. How you suppose to AA somebody with that move? I thought about mixing it up with his unblockable, but animation and speed is too different
this is my main problem with kotal. he has some decent anti air options, so if you could still get the KB from a standing 1/2/3/4 into df+2 it'd be pretty nice. it doesn't even launch so it's not like it'd be OP. Hell, even if i flawless block + up+2 a jump-in into f12, df+2 for the KB it doesn't work, and its a resource heavy punish! WTH?!?!?! oh well i guess i'm not playing kotal until he gets some quality of life buffs.

the main ones i'd like to see are:
  1. Being able to combo df+2 for the KB because by itself it'll never happen.
  2. faster recovery on totems/godray
  3. hitbox issues with jaguar/making jaguar invulnerability more practical.
  4. parry is just ass remove it from the game for something else lol.
One main buff I think he needs is to make the range on his command grab slightly better. The other two buffs he needs are making his f122 string -10 on block instead of -13,and make his foward 3 low come out two frames faster.
 

LawAbidingCitizen

MD| Soberless FGC
One main buff I think he needs is to make the range on his command grab slightly better. The other two buffs he needs are making his f122 string -10 on block instead of -13,and make his foward 3 low come out two frames faster.
Main things I want for Kotal is better hitboxes on:
  • D1
  • 1
  • 2
  • D3
  • B2
  • B22
  • F1
  • Command Grab
These break Kotal up close

Other secondary buffs are:
  • Kahn-Cut becomes base
  • Sunlight has less recovery
  • Quake has less startup maybe 30f instead of 41f.
  • ability to choose sides after command grab.
    - his KB's to not erase totems or sunlight
 

Lanqu

Noob
his b2 is ok, but b22 wiffs at max range, similar to Liu Kang's string
KB requirements fix is a must