The problems and issues that break Kotal Kahn

[AK Harold]

@Qwark28 so you are pressuring and D1 catches a jump I assume?

Corner you know already just combo.
Mid screen I use F1 cancel.

Anit air 1, I wait for them to drop.

Back 22 I definitely wait for them to drop

Kahn cut same.

The chop of F1 should be in their chest. Or they should be at eye level depending on hands obviously.

I know you probably labbed this and used it several times, but just in case.

I've seen a lot of kotals in tournament get antsy and they do it too early to combo.

 

[TurboTaco]

Then you don't do sword quake and make them jump.

They literally can jump on reaction once the animation starts

 

[TurboTaco]

@Qwark28 so you are pressuring and D1 catches a jump I assume?

Corner you know already just combo.
Mid screen I use F1 cancel.

Anit air 1, I wait for them to drop.

Back 22 I definitely wait for them to drop

Kahn cut same.

The chop of F1 should be in their chest. Or they should be at eye level depending on hands obviously.

I know you probably labbed this and used it several times, but just in case.

I've seen a lot of kotals in tournament get antsy and they do it too early to combo.

That's me, F1 too soon and whiffing combo

 

[Qwark28]

@Qwark28 so you are pressuring and D1 catches a jump I assume?

Corner you know already just combo.
Mid screen I use F1 cancel.

Anit air 1, I wait for them to drop.

Back 22 I definitely wait for them to drop

Kahn cut same.

The chop of F1 should be in their chest. Or they should be at eye level depending on hands obviously.

I know you probably labbed this and used it several times, but just in case.

I've seen a lot of kotals in tournament get antsy and they do it too early to combo.

No, I'm doing D1 on block and the opponent jumps in anticipation of command grab. You don't have time to confirm after F1 alone, you're stuck in its animation for ages and can't convert.

Until its fixed, I think I'll just do S1.

 

[AK Harold]

Oh yeah most definitely if they are doing it post block. Just s1 convert.

Honestly I recommend doing D1 then throw instead of the cancel tick. So you can respond as so. Watching your matches you lose more health then taking with his tick throw. Too many things to go wrong. I think shoving attacks down their throats to make them block first then tick throw is better against most players.

 

[Qwark28]

Oh yeah most definitely if they are doing it post block. Just s1 convert.

Honestly I recommend doing D1 then throw instead of the cancel tick. So you can respond as so. Watching your matches you lose more health then taking with his tick throw. Too many things to go wrong. I think shoving attacks down their throats to make them block first then tick throw is better against most players.

You have to do command grab because otherwise they add D2 to the mix. It's very important to enforce a D1 on hit into command grab as being a thing on why they can't just press buttons and have to jump instead. It opens up a lot.

 

[AK Harold]

Yeah D1 pause throw.
Not D1 cancel to throw.

 

[Qwark28]

Yeah D1 pause throw.
Not D1 cancel to throw.

I almost never cancel, I prefer to hit confirm my D1s.

I used to tick D1 and be a lot braver in MKX, but with the way you have to fight for every scrap of damage, 80% of the time I'll only command grab after I hitconfirm D1.

If you saw cancels in my stream during the last hour with Nivek, I was pretty burned out with a headache at that point.

 

[AK Harold]

@Qwark28 lol happens to the best of us

Also, to everyone saying you can't land an unblockable. Please understand how to use it. You have to use it mainly on frame advantage knock downs or hits. You cannot jump out of meaty unblockable. You have to delay wake up or invincible.it has 9 active frames and you have to time it as such. On a regular meaty version you can be plus 6 on hit. It is a very situational move.

 

[LawAbidingCitizen]

Sword quake is already good, it doesn't need reduced frames. I don't think NRS designed it as a tool to help Kotal with mix up. That wouldn't make sense given it has a 41f start up and around 50f recovery. Sword quake is meant for mind games and fear factor. When you condition your opponent into thinking you will use sword quake, they may try to jump. So if you can bait that you could use sword cut to land the KB.

It honestly depends on who you are that determines how you can punish it. It is 41f startup so if used footsie range it closer it's reactible by literally anything. It us not a viable move. Only against scrubby online players who don't pay attention to what is in front of them.
Max range things like Sub Zero freeze into combo, Slide, Raiden superman, F4 & F2. Nearly every projectile (take into account characters have KB on Counter) and the list goes on and on. You will eat anywhere from 20% to 50% when playing a good player making the risk far to high and the reward far too low. You only get 8% meterless and 15% with meter.
Sword quake has literally no mind game whatsoever because it's extremely slow on startup(41f) and very very punishable on recovery (51f).

People can react between 22-25 frames to give you an idea just how punishable it is. And people complain about moves that are 25-30f startup.

 

[Qwark28]

It honestly depends on who you are that determines how you can punish it. It is 41f startup so if used footsie range it closer it's reactible by literally anything. It us not a viable move. Only against scrubby online players who don't pay attention to what is in front of them.
Max range things like Sub Zero freeze into combo, Slide, Raiden superman, F4 & F2. Nearly every projectile (take into account characters have KB on Counter) and the list goes on and on. You will eat anywhere from 20% to 50% when playing a good player making the risk far to high and the reward far too low. You only get 8% meterless and 15% with meter.
Sword quake has literally no mind game whatsoever because it's extremely slow on startup(41f) and very very punishable on recovery (51f).

People can react between 22-25 frames to give you an idea just how punishable it is. And people complain about moves that are 25-30f startup.

Avg reaction time is 18-19f, not 22-25. Every few years I see people raising those numbers, 7 years ago people quoted 16.

 

[AK Harold]

Reaction time is always debatable. But it is well known in play that there are several factors that increase response time. For instance if I record erron black doing his oh string and his slide cancel which is 19f I can block it every time. Because I know only two options are coming out.

But if I play a sub zero player and in neutral he does a f2 which is 19 frames I am not going to block it every time. Because I have to react to
Low 13f
High 14f
Walking forward
Walking backward
Dash throws
Jumps
D4
Shoulder charge
Etc.

Scientifically speaking I'm sure reaction time is quite faster when reacting to a singular event. If anyone wants to take a bet on a first to ten with me for money. With the added condition that if you get hit by an unblockable you automatically lose. We can test this.

 

[LawAbidingCitizen]

Fair enough, it's just that I keep seeing more people talk about sunlight or other issues, so that 10 people are talking about 10 different problems, and I'm afraid of devs buffing him 2-3 months in with the wrong things and him sucking for a long time.

I completely understand that fear. NRS has had a bad tract record when it comes to balance patches touching the wrong things.

His hitbox issues are definitely priority along with mids and poke adjustments. These are needed.
I classify sunlight and other Special moves bring Qol after the core gameplay is fixed. If they can do both I'll be extremely grateful if they only fix the above I'll be ok and will make it work. I know it's somewhat silly but I really wanna use them and I just imagine what it could be like if they where also fixed.

 

[LawAbidingCitizen]

Avg reaction time is 18-19f, not 22-25. Every few years I see people raising those numbers, 7 years ago people quoted 16.

There was a thread on TYM that had a program that randomly did OH Low on you and you had to guess and press the right button. Sonic tested at 19-20 while the rest 20-25. This was including pros and TYM.
I mainly went off this. If what you said was was correct then we should be able to react to many Overhead/lows including Subs F2. I don't think that's the case. Maybe you have god-like reactions but I'm 30 and old so I get 22f.

 

[Qwark28]

Reaction time is always debatable. But it is well known in play that there are several factors that increase response time. For instance if I record erron black doing his oh string and his slide cancel which is 19f I can block it every time. Because I know only two options are coming out.

But if I play a sub zero player and in neutral he does a f2 which is 19 frames I am not going to block it every time. Because I have to react to
Low 13f
High 14f
Walking forward
Walking backward
Dash throws
Jumps
D4
Shoulder charge
Etc.

Scientifically speaking I'm sure reaction time is quite faster when reacting to a singular event. If anyone wants to take a bet on a first to ten with me for money. With the added condition that if you get hit by an unblockable you automatically lose. We can test this.

Which is why every good player prioritises something. You're not looking for everything, and in the instance that you're looking for the overhead, you're in a range where the rest don't matter. Same reason why you can't look at both ground and air.

In your example though, if you'd be looking for overhead, over half of what you listed would be automatically taken care of just by the distance you'd be at and blocking. If I'm blocking low in F2 range, I don't care about D4, shoulder charge or a low. And you can react to dash up grab by at least teching, but not by poking if you're that focused on reacting.

 

[AK Harold]

So you have committed to blocking low and given up your footsies. I'm just stressing your brain has a lot to consider which lowers reaction time. You do have to still process d4 even if the block is the same action because you need to process your response post block too. When you have enough options barraging you, it will slow you down.

Taking the throw is a 50,50.

I am stating clearly that even if your best reaction time is 18 frames, you will typically be playing way under that. It is near impossible to have that type of focus for a whole set. It is the reason competitive games are exciting to watch, because players reactions slip at different times.

 

[LawAbidingCitizen]

Which is why every good player prioritises something. You're not looking for everything, and in the instance that you're looking for the overhead, you're in a range where the rest don't matter. Same reason why you can't look at both ground and air.

In your example though, if you'd be looking for overhead, over half of what you listed would be automatically taken care of just by the distance you'd be at and blocking. If I'm blocking low in F2 range, I don't care about D4, shoulder charge or a low. And you can react to dash up grab by at least teching, but not by poking if you're that focused on reacting.

Some would argue that what you are talking about is read not reaction. Knowing something is comming or looking for it isn't pure reaction. Otherwise Sub Zero wouldn't have a true 50/50 one option being reactible at 19f.
But I have no doubt we can block something we are looking for at 19f and yes spacing is half of this game.

 

[Qwark28]

So you have committed to blocking low and given up your footsies. I'm just stressing your brain has a lot to consider which lowers reaction time. You do have to still process d4 even if the block is the same action because you need to process your response post block too. When you have enough options barraging you, it will slow you down.

Taking the throw is a 50,50.

I am stating clearly that even if your best reaction time is 18 frames, you will typically be playing way under that. It is near impossible to have that type of focus for a whole set. It is the reason competitive games are exciting to watch, because players reactions slip at different times.

I assume the situations in which I'm trying to react to F2 is a situation in which I've already given up footsies from the start, and I'm purely trying to react, which are the situations from my limited experience vs him.

 

[KotalKahnIsTrueKahn]

Yeah, totally agree with a d1 changes and the need for a fast mid. Those two alone would improve his place in the game so much. I also think his cmd grab needs better ticks, like you said. Good post!

P.S improve the startup of his sword quake. It is too sick a move to not be viable. Just look at it!

 

[chief713]

• Increase the range on D1 and D4.
• Bigger hitboxes on F1, 1 and 2.
• Allow side switch choice on amp command grab
• Make 4 mid

 

[AK Harold]

I will be very happy when all of your tears produce buffs.

 

[AK Harold]

Seriously too many kids crying for buffs a month into a game.

 

[chief713]

Seriously too many kids crying for buffs a month into a game.

Things I want

I want panther amp to start up faster to use as a reaction. I'd like to be rewarded for reactions instead of making ridiculous Gamble's at full screen. Maybe it would be too op.

I wish totems didn't disappear during crushes etc. Often I have totems up but have to choose not to crush to not lose healing. Also the damage with totems would give it greater use. Especially considering fatal blows.

I want his 22 string to be better for something, turn it into a stagger string or allow midscreen combos.

S4 - I wish I could cancel it like it says in the move list.

 

[LawAbidingCitizen]

The point is you don't need to do sword quake at all if you condition them to anticipate it. If they are going to jump because they "think" you are going to do sword quake, then you are already controlling them.

Hey man I'll explain it for you. Against players who know the matchup you should not use Quake. It's far to slow on startup. People can react easily in 20 frames give or take. It starts up in 41.

Let's say you do it up close:
It's so slow that any move faster than 40 frames full combo punishes it so 25% to 50% with entire cast.

Max range:
On animation it's the same issue, 41 frames on startup so it can't hit opponent until the 41 frames is done. So what a good player will do is jump in after seeing the animation avoiding the unblockable Quake and full combo punish. Most of the cast can do this. The ones who can't just neutral jump, block overhead and walk up for full combo punish.

The entire cast can punish Quake from all ranges. Most of the cast can punish Sunlight but some can't like Kollector (his bola and Teleport is too slow).

So understanding this we know you can't condition it on good players who know the matchup since it's not safe anywhere.

But between me and you, I love using it online vs random. The game is early so get your quake on before they figure it out.
No one blames anyone for not knowing this, the game is still young.

 

[Lanqu]

My 5 cents for NRS gods (if they are watching this thread). I agree on most issues described in longposts here.

1. His only jail after D1 poke is s2 and d2. But it is so damn hard to land s2 and s2 has range issues. I think his d1 must jail into s1 on hit. And what's the point having d3 only +6 on hit when every move is that slow? And d4 should also jail in something scary. D4 into dash into f1 is not that reliable at all. Could that jail into b22?
2. His f4 has good pushback on standing opponent, but it leaves in range of opponents poke if they were crouching
3. His parry is so damn shit. Besides occasional cancel into parry for 'mental frame advantage' there is not much use of it. While other parries do damage, combos, suck life.. Kotal's one barely gives him any frame advantage. 2 fast hits will even crash parry completely (like Cassie's standing pistols). Startup is ass slow for a parry being at 14 frames. As it was said here, it is one of his signature moves and is so unreliable
4. Would like to have a bit more safe setups for godray and totem
5. Both kitties are so high risk low reward, that isn't even fun. Diagonal kitty with ability to choose a jump range would be great. Being able to amplify it on block would be great. Immunity for projectiles during roll would be also great.
6. Agree, damage totem has more sense to have. Kotal is not kinda character who can reasonably trade or apply safe pokes, or mixup to dish out some damage to feed his totem. If I want reliable source of healing he has godray. If I want stack totems for higher blood return I need to stay at the same place. How then it differs from godray? Otherwise there should be a setup for a totem, that leaves opponent upclose for guessing game.
7. Straight kitty is +12 on Hit and knockdown is pretty far away I must say. Only f2 can make some sort of frametrap. I usually prefer to use df2 instead - it has better advantage on knockdown and ability to switch sides. If only kitty could be used kinda scorpion teleport, with instant projectile immunity and fast startup, it existence would have sense for me. Otherwise it exists just for the sake of mercy brutality. Must say that at fullscreen opponent is able to block straight kitty and full combo punish? Isn't it exactly that case when it supposed to be used??
8. Unblockable is a joke against skilled opponent even after 121 knockdown
9. KB requirement on slow ass df2 move is shit. How you suppose to AA somebody with that move? I thought about mixing it up with his unblockable, but animation and speed is too different
10. Wish s4 stay cancellable as it was day 1...