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Guide - Kotal Kahn The post-patch B1 metagame

legion666

Champion
The nature of block strings being canned combos in MK means that unless they have a string where they are able to cancel into a specific special on reaction (luckily, Kotal Kahn has 2) the offensive player has already committed to what attacks are going to happen since option selects are gone. It's your responsibility to know when to backdash, take the hit, neutral duck, block, armor move, etc and it's also your responsibility as a defender to know when this is possible. If this wasn't the case, then match up knowledge wouldn't matter. Your reward for making the correct defensive choice is that the offensive player overextends on you get to counter attack/escape the pressure situation.

Getting hit on purpose to take the least amount of damage makes sense especially in this game because the offensive player doesn't gain meter when attacks connect (unless it's the meter gained for executing a special attack). Players have taken jabs on purpose for the longest time to be in hit stun so command grabs and other tick throws don't work. You should really use your life bar as a tool because winning with 1% and a perfect is the same. You will earn the exact same amount of money when the tourney is over.
Dude, I am playing NRS games for 3,5 years now, you don't have to explain to me the mechanics of MKX. I will never agree that getting out of a block infinite by getting hit and hopping opponent won't read you doing that and punish with a full combo is a justification for this not to be considered a block infinite. (in case with Takeda the last hit of f12 2+4 before the quick call will knock you down even if he doesn't read you let go off block, you are getting knocked down the hit takes more health then the chip, and Ronin can really apply pressure in the oki game, plus if you didn't have a bar to get out of the infinite you still don't have it to wake up here, so you loose more health, maybe a couple percent, and have a 90% chance of being put back into this infinite - again all this if he doesn't read that you will let go of block)
 

legion666

Champion
It's still a read 50/50 either way. Because if they try to convert and you stay blocking. Your in the better position
Fly, you have been around in mk9 days. Don't you think by your logic that Kabal's prepatch infinite f32xxNDC was ok because you could get hit by the second hit of the string only (2) and even if Kabal let the dash go it doesn't spin you for a combo. Why didn't we let it rock?!? It is still a 50/50 , and Kabal could only hitconfirm it into a saw or the overhead hooks,because the spin wouldn't spin you regardless of his reads and you only get knocked down.
 

Qwark28

Joker waiting room
Fly, you have been around in mk9 days. Don't you think by your logic that Kabal's prepatch infinite f32xxNDC was ok because you could get hit by the second hit of the string only (2) and even if Kabal let the dash go it doesn't spin you for a combo. Why didn't we let it rock?!? It is still a 50/50 , and Kabal could only hitconfirm it into a saw or the overhead hooks,because the spin wouldn't spin you regardless of his reads and you only get knocked down.
2 ndc
 

legion666

Champion
Come on Qwark, 2xxNDC was there till the end of the game's life and was dumb as fuck but at least 2 was a high, Kabal had a f32xxNDC infinite in the very beginning of mk9 pre evo 2011, it was nuts. But according to the players who think it is alright to just get hit it was just fine.
 

Qwark28

Joker waiting room
Come on Qwark, 2xxNDC was there till the end of the game's life and was dumb as fuck but at least 2 was a high, Kabal had a f32xxNDC infinite in the very beginning of mk9 pre evo 2011, it was nuts. But according to the players who think it is alright to just get hit it was just fine.
If he landed a F4 or JIP you were jailed high.

2NDC was the reason why LK couldn't go 5-5 or beat him.
 

legion666

Champion
If he landed a F4 or JIP you were jailed high.

2NDC was the reason why LK couldn't go 5-5 or beat him.
I am not saying 2xxndc wasn't an infinite on some characters. After f4xxndc or Jip He could just do 111xxndc which was +9 on block as well and then go into 2xxndc))))) I was just referring to the more broken infinite that was there in the beginning of the game (f32xxndc all day)
Also technically his 2xxndc was +9 on block and only +8 on hit. So according to some people in this thread it was also ok because you could just get hit by 2xxndc and if Kabal doesn't let the dash go you can low poke him out of the next 2 because it is a high and doesn't jail anymore(2 was 9 frame in start up and being +8 doesn't guarantee the next 2 to jail)
 

AK L0rdoftheFLY

I hatelove this game
Fly, you have been around in mk9 days. Don't you think by your logic that Kabal's prepatch infinite f32xxNDC was ok because you could get hit by the second hit of the string only (2) and even if Kabal let the dash go it doesn't spin you for a combo. Why didn't we let it rock?!? It is still a 50/50 , and Kabal could only hitconfirm it into a saw or the overhead hooks,because the spin wouldn't spin you regardless of his reads and you only get knocked down.
I believe in each person playing their role. We are the gamers and need to focus on playing the game the developers made.

The developers need to watch us play and adjust the game to how they want it.

It's not up to us to decide buffs or nerfs (it used to be fun to think about but it's too real now)

So if I am playing the game as it stands, yes I would take the hit and move on. That's the best solution that changes the meta the fastest. It's way faster than waiting for another patch or hotfix.

I'm not saying it's "ok" but I personally don't have a problem with it. I'll play the game I'm given and if they change it then I'll adapt. That's all I'm sayjng
 

LeeVanDam

Sun God Advocate
Dude, I am playing NRS games for 3,5 years now, you don't have to explain to me the mechanics of MKX. I will never agree that getting out of a block infinite by getting hit and hopping opponent won't read you doing that and punish with a full combo is a justification for this not to be considered a block infinite. (in case with Takeda the last hit of f12 2+4 before the quick call will knock you down even if he doesn't read you let go off block, you are getting knocked down the hit takes more health then the chip, and Ronin can really apply pressure in the oki game, plus if you didn't have a bar to get out of the infinite you still don't have it to wake up here, so you loose more health, maybe a couple percent, and have a 90% chance of being put back into this infinite - again all this if he doesn't read that you will let go of block)
The idea of creating the perfect block string is the same in any almost any fighting game. Both players are making dynamic reads based on what they predict the other character will do. The offensive player normally has a preset game plan because they've though about what moves string together best, while the defensive player is looking for the moves they know provide holes to the string. In most situations the defender will either correctly use something to avoid damage completely (i.e. back dash, side step, block, parry, reversal, etc.), not guess correctly and eat a lot of damage, or take the lesser of two evils if they have enough life in order to avoid thinking about the situation altogether. This isn't just limited to NRS games. In Tekken, when you're playing high level and are knocked down... in order to avoid being put in back/side turned situations or being floated for a juggle most players will stay on the ground and take the grounded hit which pushes them far enough away to get up safely. It's just what you do to avoid potentially killing yourself by overthinking wake up options.

I'm sorry you don't like the options the game presents you with, but based on your question in regards to the block infinite I answered it with as much detail as possible so there would be no confusion. Also, I feel a block infinite is simply that... a situation where if you are caught blocking, there is no escape whatsoever until you dead (like what you were discussing with Kabal earlier since I'm guessing there isn't enough frame advantage to even let go of block and take the hit). Not no escape until you choose to take a hit, or use an armored move, or other defensive tool, you literally just can't change actions once you start blocking and you may as well shake your opponent's hand when it starts because the game won't even let you out of block stun. This is not the case. I agree that this is a very very tight block string, and I'm not happy that it is easy to create... but there are methods of escape even though we may wish for better ones.

This situation appears to be bad, but Kotal Kahn also has a 1 frame option with his EX parry... and Sun God has an instant armor option which gives him an unblockable counter attack should they try to create a hole for armor bait. So KK may not have any of the issues you're discussing in respect to Takeda's block string.

Do I think it's bad? Sure, but there are a ton of situations in this game which are just as bad if not worse so let's use the options we have and deal with it.
 

legion666

Champion
The idea of creating the perfect block string is the same in any almost any fighting game. Both players are making dynamic reads based on what they predict the other character will do. The offensive player normally has a preset game plan because they've though about what moves string together best, while the defensive player is looking for the moves they know provide holes to the string. In most situations the defender will either correctly use something to avoid damage completely (i.e. back dash, side step, block, parry, reversal, etc.), not guess correctly and eat a lot of damage, or take the lesser of two evils if they have enough life in order to avoid thinking about the situation altogether. This isn't just limited to NRS games. In Tekken, when you're playing high level and are knocked down... in order to avoid being put in back/side turned situations or being floated for a juggle most players will stay on the ground and take the grounded hit which pushes them far enough away to get up safely. It's just what you do to avoid potentially killing yourself by overthinking wake up options.

I'm sorry you don't like the options the game presents you with, but based on your question in regards to the block infinite I answered it with as much detail as possible so there would be no confusion. Also, I feel a block infinite is simply that... a situation where if you are caught blocking, there is no escape whatsoever until you dead (like what you were discussing with Kabal earlier since I'm guessing there isn't enough frame advantage to even let go of block and take the hit). Not no escape until you choose to take a hit, or use an armored move, or other defensive tool, you literally just can't change actions once you start blocking and you may as well shake your opponent's hand when it starts because the game won't even let you out of block stun. This is not the case. I agree that this is a very very tight block string, and I'm not happy that it is easy to create... but there are methods of escape even though we may wish for better ones.

This situation appears to be bad, but Kotal Kahn also has a 1 frame option with his EX parry... and Sun God has an instant armor option which gives him an unblockable counter attack should they try to create a hole for armor bait. So KK may not have any of the issues you're discussing in respect to Takeda's block string.

Do I think it's bad? Sure, but there are a ton of situations in this game which are just as bad if not worse so let's use the options we have and deal with it.
I get it) I have just asked Takedas about their shit, and guess what if Takeda is smart and does always cancel into a medium sword toss he can hitconfirm the last hit of both b21 2+4 and f122+4 into a combo into a standing reset, where you are put into his pressure again. So no! Getting hit isn't an option for those characters that get infinited.

In regards to kabal's infinite - you could let go off block as I described and that would be your only option to get out, but it was risky as hell, f32xxndc was taken out of the game. Of course in case with Ronin's block pressure you can get out if you have meter AND viable armor (which not every character has) but if not and you are one of the characters that get locked down ( the ones with normals slower than 7 frames) - you are screwed))))
I am not a Kotal main by the way! I mained Shinnok and Quan since day 1. So, as a Quan main, pressure where you can only escape with armor worries me a lot as he doesn't have any viable armor in Summoner and Sorcerer))) but now the 6 frame d1 at least gets him an option.
 

Rude

You will serve me in The Netherrealm
So to check for understanding, if the Kotal player does 114 into air grab, you can armor the b1 follow up.

If he cancels into mb sun disk off any string, you can armor.

Can you armor 114 air grab into another 114?

How reactable would you say MB Sun Disk is?

Sun Disk...i mean Sunstone or whatever it's called.
 

AK L0rdoftheFLY

I hatelove this game
So to check for understanding, if the Kotal player does 114 into air grab, you can armor the b1 follow up.

If he cancels into mb sun disk off any string, you can armor.

Can you armor 114 air grab into another 114?

How reactable would you say MB Sun Disk is?

Sun Disk...i mean Sunstone or whatever it's called.
Super reactable. Don't be rude
 

Qwark28

Joker waiting room
So to check for understanding, if the Kotal player does 114 into air grab, you can armor the b1 follow up.

If he cancels into mb sun disk off any string, you can armor.

Can you armor 114 air grab into another 114?

How reactable would you say MB Sun Disk is?

Sun Disk...i mean Sunstone or whatever it's called.
1 is a high, you can probably react to the end of the second 1 whiffing if you play a low hurtbox char on which the 11 string completely whiffs but if youre someone only the first 1 whiffs on then no, you got mixed up.

sunstone is reactable, not super reactable up close.
 

buyacushun

Normalize grab immunity.
Can I do b122 air throw to at least be safe and not get any guaranteed normals?

So like 114xxDF1, B122xxDF3, 114xxDF1, B122xx(read armour)DF1, block armour then punish.
 

Qwark28

Joker waiting room
Can I do b122 air throw to at least be safe and not get any guaranteed normals?

So like 114xxDF1, B122xxDF3, 114xxDF1, B122xx(read armour)DF1, block armour then punish.
No. You can be punished. If you read armour then just do B1 into another 114 for example.
 

Qwark28

Joker waiting room
Why would that work? Wouldn't armour blow up 114, especially after b1?
If your opponent is mashing armour then they'd get hit by the b122 anyway. If they're waiting to mash out armour after b122 then they're not actually reacting to sunstone and just mashing it out. Since they wait until the end of the string you can start a new one.
 

buyacushun

Normalize grab immunity.
If your opponent is mashing armour then they'd get hit by the b122 anyway. If they're waiting to mash out armour after b122 then they're not actually reacting to sunstone and just mashing it out. Since they wait until the end of the string you can start a new one.
Ok so it's more of a mind game statement sort of thing rather than a solution to beat an opponent's options. I like.

Which reminds I haven't seen it discussed here the option of staggering/pausing at a tick point in the blockstring. Even if they stay grounded just putting the option of doing nothing while they do nothing is a pretty scary thought in the defender's head. Also makes it more uncertain of when ticks are coming and allows for punishes of they jump wrong.

Actually what are Kotal's options for jumpers trying to get out of throw? Do I have to change things in case of neutral, forward and backwards?
 

smokey

EX Ovi should launch
@Qwark28 Some guys in cage forum talking about this matchup, im personally not sure this patch but can cage low profile anything to get out of the 114~air throw b122 sunstone loops with no meter, or is he dead with no armour or blow 8f pokes?
 

Qwark28

Joker waiting room
Ok so it's more of a mind game statement sort of thing rather than a solution to beat an opponent's options. I like.

Which reminds I haven't seen it discussed here the option of staggering/pausing at a tick point in the blockstring. Even if they stay grounded just putting the option of doing nothing while they do nothing is a pretty scary thought in the defender's head. Also makes it more uncertain of when ticks are coming and allows for punishes of they jump wrong.

Actually what are Kotal's options for jumpers trying to get out of throw? Do I have to change things in case of neutral, forward and backwards?
If you mean people jumping out of 114 air throw, you used to be able to OS 4 with ex air throw on hit but you no longer can. They can take the 4 and the air throw will whiff.

If they jump after 114 air throw they will get hit by B1.
 

Qwark28

Joker waiting room
@Qwark28 Some guys in cage forum talking about this matchup, im personally not sure this patch but can cage low profile anything to get out of the 114~air throw b122 sunstone loops with no meter, or is he dead with no armour or blow 8f pokes?
If he low profiles before its active frames maybe. My guess is he takes a B1 to the face.
 

buyacushun

Normalize grab immunity.
If you mean people jumping out of 114 air throw, you used to be able to OS 4 with ex air throw on hit but you no longer can. They can take the 4 and the air throw will whiff.

If they jump after 114 air throw they will get hit by B1.
I mean after 1 or after b1 because they expect a tick throw. I figured it'd be better to pause and catch a jumper with something other then the end of b122.

Like b1 (pause, they jump) f2 or something. I don't know max damage optimal stuff for kotal. (I should get on that)
 

Qwark28

Joker waiting room
I mean after 1 or after b1 because they expect a tick throw. I figured it'd be better to pause and catch a jumper with something other then the end of b122.

Like b1 (pause, they jump) f2 or something. I don't know max damage optimal stuff for kotal. (I should get on that)
If they think you'll do a tick throw then they'll most probably armour. If they try to jump you can do b1 into d1 B14. F2 is unusable point blank.
 

buyacushun

Normalize grab immunity.
If they think you'll do a tick throw then they'll most probably armour. If they try to jump you can do b1 into d1 B14. F2 is unusable point blank.
Cool. Oh, do you know if it's possible to get a grab immune strong out on a tick throw?