Juxtapose
Master
Then you'll need to change your name to Fadebyfade. Bitebybite is for Ravenous players .Gonna pick up Ethereal
Then you'll need to change your name to Fadebyfade. Bitebybite is for Ravenous players .Gonna pick up Ethereal
Have to do 10 fade aways in the match.Yo.
How do you do her "death by snu snu" brutality again?
Have to do 10 fade aways in the match.
It was changed to 5 last patch.Yo.
How do you do her "death by snu snu" brutality again?
Sub's B2 isn't that bad anymore. It's -13 now I believe.You guys must remember that roll has horrible travel speed. It can take like 12 frames or worse to reach the max range as Johnny's d4 (try to punish Sub's B2 lol). It's not even the solution for some situations (some characters when do specific attacks, their hurtbox is covered behind the attack's hitbox)
It's always been -13. However in real matches roll randomly fails to punish that (based on distance, but Sub doesn't need to space himself perfectly to make it safe against roll). To comparison, Piercing B1 can punish his B2 like 90% of the time, it doesn't care about distance, the only time B1 fails to punish is when Sub somehow manages to hit her at the last active frame of B2. What I meant was roll isn't that good in neutral (and Piercing B1 is godlike of course)Sub's B2 isn't that bad anymore. It's -13 now I believe.
I could've sworn B2 got nerfed from release date. Cause I could never punish with Roll before and now it's pretty easy for me.It's always been -13. However in real matches roll randomly fails to punish that (based on distance, but Sub doesn't need to space himself perfectly to make it safe against roll). To comparison, Piercing B1 can punish his B2 like 90% of the time, it doesn't care about distance, the only time B1 fails to punish is when Sub somehow manages to hit her at the last active frame of B2. What I meant was roll isn't that good in neutral (and Piercing B1 is godlike of course)
I agree on the fixes part, but that's kinda it... I genuinely feel that with the fixes, she has a guaranteed spot in A+ without a doubt, and with a poke buff which we DESERVE (along with deserved fixes) since nothing useful as a counter-poke other than roll/EXroll will get us out of pressure, she COULD be S. I've grinded in so many matches and labbed the hell out of her as well as against the other character's tools, that she REALLY feels nowhere near as bad as the impression I got when first getting the game, along with what the majority of the community says.i think Mileena is a great character but not A+ material. in the section where she was discussed, alot of emphasis was placed on her b12. while b12 being a great "get the fuck away from me" type string, it can be low profiled which i feel can be a problem depending on how good a characters pokes are. she also gets weighed down by stupid frame data like her F44 being a string that has to be used with certainty. considering all the characters that can just throw out strings for the sake of doing them, she can't.
the reality of Mileena is, she was designed to be a counter-puncher. she has very strong anti-airs, a low profiling and launching whiff punish, and decent zoning. this trait of Mileena shines brighter in Ethereal, where the EX Fade is the ultimate whiff punishing and escape tool. i believe her level of viability is dependent on the player she's up against. she doesn't have the greatest tools for being the offender, but she will fuck you up hard, if you aren't familiar with the mu or are a reckless player. if you're the type of player that likes to jump around and make hasty advances, she'll beat you with her hands tied behind her back. if you're the patient and careful type, you'll give her a tough day at work. i do feel she has the tools to deal with most mu's in the game. but like mentioned earlier, she relies heavily on you to make a mistake or be reckless in general. she has tools, but not the best ones for initiating a solid offense.
anyway, those are my two cents on the empress. i don't think she needs many buffs to become worthy of A+ tier, but with some fixes to some of her bugs and inconsistencies and hopefully more normalization to the top tier characters she would be evened out with alot of the cast.
I listened to their anaylsis as well, and I did so with an open mind to see just what it was that made this character so controversial. One thing that stood out to me was the reasons for Erron Black being placed lower are the same reasons Mileena is placed higher. As @Damaja325 said, her viability has always been hinged on her B1/B12 in Piercing. B12 is a VERY good move. No doubting that. But the low-profiling thing can NOT be overlooked. Not just because "she doesn't have to B12 back-to-back", but because if your opponent knows that, it effectively removes your advantage. Yes, she can bait stuff. Yes, she can armor. But again, you are playing defensively in an otherwise offensive situation with any actual A+ character. Hell even some B-tier characters (according to that UK list anyway).I put this in the UK Edition's Tier List thread, but figured I'd put it here too. I've had conflicted thoughts about this character because of so much that has been said to me claimed as fact by the community (not calling out anyone at all, but for someone recently picking up the game, your guys' feedback was very much taken to heart) along with first impressions, but after so much time spent creating practically every scenario in the game, this is how I feel about her.
I agree on the fixes part, but that's kinda it... I genuinely feel that with the fixes, she has a guaranteed spot in A+ without a doubt, and with a poke buff which we DESERVE (along with deserved fixes) since nothing useful as a counter-poke other than roll/EXroll will get us out of pressure, she COULD be S. I've grinded in so many matches and labbed the hell out of her as well as against the other character's tools, that she REALLY feels nowhere near as bad as the impression I got when first getting the game, along with what the majority of the community says.
She IS hella safe. If your choice is to use Ethereal and give up range, speed, OKI, plus frames, additional mixups, and overall meterless play, that's on you (speaking in general terms). No one is making you give up the variation that makes her A+. No one is making you use f44/f4~roll or f4~Exroll. No one is making you commit to EXrolls or rolls on their own when you don't need to. No one is making you do repeated b12's back to back even when you well know which MU's can low profile it. No one is making you do 25% bnbs into a half-assed knockdown when you can corner carry, build meter, and do well over 30% meterless into a death trap. No character can GENUINELY force you/her to play their game because she HAS the option of where she wants to be on the screen; upclose, B12 range or fullscreen. And she has the options in every MU, with Kang slightly being in his favor for his overall safeness.
I made the Flaws and Fixes video because it astounded me how much of her moveset was very much flawed, but telekick empty frames, Air sai recovery and active frames, XRAY bug aside, she doesn't NEED the rest of moveset. The poke buff and b1/b12 being true mids would be great and SHOULD be given to her, but the fixes from the stuff above is what's truly needed to get rid of the inconsistencies.
Can't argue with a lot of this lol. For me, I'm basing it off of how well I understand the character, along with having used someone like Wonder Woman in Injustice. The comparison; WW was plus and/or safe on A LOT, very much like Mileena and truly, had about the same range in terms of the speed it would compliment, however, they both have relatively the same post pressure game. Yes they are plus/safe and yes, nothing is/was "guaranteed", but this is precisely what makes it even more hectic for the opponent. Both players know nothing is guaranteed, so they MUST choose to use a low profiling move, or eat something thrown out. If they backdash, MUCH like WW, I really don't care because they're that much closer to the wall now. @Jaiyson made this comparison on one of my recent streams about my style and it didn't occur to me until he said it, but Mileena does very much plays like a hybrid of WW and Harley Quinn.I listened to their anaylsis as well, and I did so with an open mind to see just what it was that made this character so controversial. One thing that stood out to me was the reasons for Erron Black being placed lower are the same reasons Mileena is placed higher. As @Damaja325 said, her viability has always been hinged on her B1/B12 in Piercing. B12 is a VERY good move. No doubting that. But the low-profiling thing can NOT be overlooked. Not just because "she doesn't have to B12 back-to-back", but because if your opponent knows that, it effectively removes your advantage. Yes, she can bait stuff. Yes, she can armor. But again, you are playing defensively in an otherwise offensive situation with any actual A+ character. Hell even some B-tier characters (according to that UK list anyway).
Mileena's trademark moves are strong. Yes Telekick + Roll means you CAN hit from basically anywhere on screen, but if you do so, (and every Mileena does eventually), it is a huge risk. (unless their projectiles are reactable like Sub). You can play her as safe as you want, until you need to make up a life lead. There's more to taking risk in a game like this than throwing out unsafe moves/strings. You have to make a ton of reads with her to get your stuff to work. And hey, that's not necessarily a BAD thing. But it does separate her from the characters who can play this game at a base level without spending a bunch of meter or needing to condition you so heavily.
No, she doesn't need a laundry list of buffs. I'll agree with you there for sure. And she IS a good character. In fact, B12 being true mid might be overkill in itself, IF she gets some other things. I'm not claiming to have mastered the character by any means, but as the overall neutral game improves, and people's MU knowledge and comfort level improves, I can't imagine her being placed as high going forward if she were to stay untouched.
Lol, well I guess it's just a matter of optimism vs realism between us. I can't really argue your post either as ultimately it boils down to whether or not you're batting a thousand on reads. Especially concerning her "full-screen presence" Mileena's Oki game is definitely up there. I'm putting together a vid as I type this for thoughts on her possible KP2 upgrades.Can't argue with a lot of this lol. For me, I'm basing it off of how well I understand the character, along with having used someone like Wonder Woman in Injustice. The comparison; WW was plus and/or safe on A LOT, very much like Mileena and truly, had about the same range in terms of the speed it would compliment, however, they both have relatively the same post pressure game. Yes they are plus/safe and yes, nothing is/was "guaranteed", but this is precisely what makes it even more hectic for the opponent. Both players know nothing is guaranteed, so they MUST choose to use a low profiling move, or eat something thrown out. If they backdash, MUCH like WW, I really don't care because they're that much closer to the wall now. @Jaiyson made this comparison on one of my recent streams about my style and it didn't occur to me until he said it, but Mileena does very much plays like a hybrid of WW and Harley Quinn.
Mileena's ultimate gameplan is to get the opponent to the corner OR to keep them fullscreen where she can zone and chip away. In both situations, but specifically in the corner, EVERY character is at risk doing anything against her because of her b12, b21, EXroll, a jump in, NJP, a f3 low crushing any pokes, etc. and on knockdown, f12b4. Mind you, in the corner, you're free to F1 your life away because there is nowhere else to backdash to. Her mixup, similarly to Harley's but more prevalent with WW, is that she jails without "truly" jailing. It may be based on reads and/or reaction, sure, but it doesn't dismiss the fact that she HAS these options at her disposal and that ALL aside from EXRoll/roll are safe and on block or hit, sway in her favor every time. WW was for the most part agreed #6 in the game despite her not having the mixups like BG or jailing like MMH because she still had her tools to deal with every situation, punished hard as hell, and when she knocked you down, 99/100, you weren't getting back up for free. Now, couple in Mileena's fullscreen presence with the telekick and sai/low sai zoning, and you can see just how incredibly versatile she is at every position.
When it comes to other characters like Erron Black or anyone else listed below AND above her, they aren't safe when it comes to getting out of pressure or waking up, which is essentially ALL we need. Plus they have gaps that EXRoll/roll take care of and they all MUST play at her pace due to the options she has. Sonya for example doesn't set the pace, even upclose because she still has to respect that we can punish her. From fullscreen, she poses no threat. Kung Jin, same thing, and so on with those below and even a vast amount of those above her on the UK list.
Her "true mid" buff wouldn't be overkill imo, but it would seal her spot in for a S tier placement, provided MAINLY the xray bug and air sai bs gets fixed. And again, only the XRAY really needs fixing. She does well enough as is without the air sais, but it's still an issue that needs to be addressed since every aspect of it IS intentionally bugged. F4/F44 SHOULD get fixed as well, but when you have other gap-less and safer footsie tools like F23 or B12, I see no need to rely on the move whatsoever.
MK9 was completely different though. She lacked armor and fast normals so naturally that was hell against pressure heavy characters. In this game, she has armor, great range with B12 and her roll is 8f. Plus she actually has a solid playstyle with her OKI that stops nearly every character from getting up.Lol, well I guess it's just a matter of optimism vs realism between us. I can't really argue your post either as ultimately it boils down to whether or not you're batting a thousand on reads. Especially concerning her "full-screen presence" Mileena's Oki game is definitely up there. I'm putting together a vid as I type this for thoughts on her possible KP2 upgrades.
I say it'd be overkill because her offense would be kinda braindead, lol. B12... wait... b12, b12.. oh you backdashed? Run up b12 again. No you can't jump out, or duck, or low poke, or backdash. Finally you armored! Oh it's my turn now? B1--hah you thought I was gonna do it again didn--- B12~Roll....
I will say this though. During MK9, people were doing this EXACT same thing with plugging her way up after Reo got 2nd at EVO. Everyone said she's fine. I even believed them. But then after fighting Kabal and Sonya and Cage etc. I posted and posted and posted about why she can't be that high and that she needed better adv on her pokes and armor to deal with pressure. But I wasn't placing all the time so I was "just being negative". After 4... FOUR patches, she never got any changes. And had decidedly fallen to mid tier at best by the end.
Pig dropped her for Kenshi. Death dropped her for Sonya. Reo dropped her for every top tier in the game. Even Fox dropped her for Sonya.
At the end of the day, I could put her at E tier or SS++ tier, but it only matters what NRS thinks.
You're right the situation was different, but my point was that the scenario of having buff/fix suggestions being dismissed as "downplaying" or "pessimistic" is the same. She's again in need of some help, but not a whole lot of it. Trying to assign a letter to her tier position ultimately does nothing but draw out debates.MK9 was completely different though. She lacked armor and fast normals so naturally that was hell against pressure heavy characters. In this game, she has armor, great range with B12 and her roll is 8f. Plus she actually has a solid playstyle with her OKI that stops nearly every character from getting up.
I am optimistic for her, but its within reason. The biggest factor again, is that she is safe and plus, allowing her to literally do what she wants in 99% of her situations on block or hit.
Jax F21, Jacqui F12/B14 Cassie B124 but hers has a gap, Cage F3~Shadow kick cancel. Probably others I've missed.Anybody have any examples of mids strings that are plus in the game, for comparisons sake
Oh yea its justs down 3 times.@Yoaks
@ZeroEffect
I meant the Low Pounce one. It's pressing Down 3 times right? Getting back into the game and this is the most important thing to get down.
No, he played her until the end, but also picked up Sonya because he needed to for the higher tiers of that game. This resulted in him needing to use Sonya more in the end since Mileena could not deal with Kabal, etc.Even Fox dropped her for Sonya.
I mean it's all the same really. If she had gotten those couple changes he wouldn't have needed to bother with a secondary.No, he played her until the end, but also picked up Sonya because he needed to for the higher tiers of that game. This resulted in him needing to use Sonya more in the end since Mileena could not deal with Kabal, etc.
He still used Mileena against Cyrax though.