General/Other The Killing Art of Sub-Zero - Why He Needs ZERO Buffs

[salvificblood]

So with new slide , Sub will be the best anti zone character in the game >_> ???
No love for Smoke .

Smoke is not just a counterpick to zoners, though. He does have a thing called pressure and he's actually a very dangerous character in the right hands. I don't think Sub's slide buffs would make him the best counter to zoning in the game, anyway. The best counter zoner in the game is Cyrax, in my opinion, anyway. Just because you're bound to trade with a net at some point...

 

[TheChad_87]

i know this is the sub zero forum so i shouldnt say it here, cyrax has enough as is, he doesnt need ANY improvements, the chest saw has its uses, if you wanna anti air them, use 'anti air'

I was being facetious ...

 

[Mechacide]

So anyway... The whole point of this thread was to try and point out Sub-Zero's main strength, and exactly why I don't believe he needs any buffs, least of all any to help him get in on zoners (not including Skarlet).

So do people disagree with me? Do people feel that some character are just impossible to push to the wall? Or are impossible to keep in the corner? Or what? It would be nice to get some proper discussion going, as we already have at least three other threads where people are comparing Sub to Cyrax and then complaining about the top and bottom tiers etc.

 

[Gameninja521]

So anyway... The whole point of this thread was to try and point out Sub-Zero's main strength, and exactly why I don't believe he needs any buffs, least of all any to help him get in on zoners (not including Skarlet).

So do people disagree with me? Do people feel that some character are just impossible to push to the wall? Or are impossible to keep in the corner? Or what? It would be nice to get some proper discussion going, as we already have at least three other threads where people are comparing Sub to Cyrax and then complaining about the top and bottom tiers etc.

Well, either Sub has to get buffed or other characters have to get nerfed. The Kitana/Mileena match up is SOOOO annoying. Maybe even a faster d+4 would help Sub. Also, we finally get something good (the reset) and it's getting taken away. Sub SHOULD be able to do that much damage, but not in an unintended combo. Maybe his damage shou;d go back to how it was when the game came out. I dunno, just a few thoughts.

 

[Mechacide]

Right now I find Kitana much more difficult than Mileena, because Kitana is harder to keep in the corner, and her d+1 is a little harder to beat. Mileena's d+4 is easily beaten, and she gets destroyed in the corner (at least in my experience).

People claim these match-ups are only 4-6 for Sub anyway, so are people really having that many issues? Or are the match-up charts wrong?

Also, I think Sub's dmg is just fine. He gets 38% from a JIP. He only gets around 25% from a naked freeze, sure, but then that's more than Noob gets mid-screen. You can claim that Noob gets his main dmg from projectiles, but he gets less than 25% for each, and his corner pressure isn't as good as Sub's. To be honest, Sub shouldn't be getting naked freezes from across the stage anyway. Once or twice, sure, to make the opp think twice before throwing out projectiles, but he should be making his way to them and pushing them to the corner.

Besides, you only have to freeze the opp 4 times to win a round (not counting breakers). That doesn't seem unreasonable to me.

 

[Grub]

I think it's awesome that Sub is going to be able to slide under high projectiles. Finally!

 

[Name v.5.0]

ermac is fine as is, cyrax will be able to do over 50% still just not in the 70's-90's, the only nerf KL needs is no pushback on spin.

Are you confirming Cyrax receiving a nerf? How are they achieving this?

 

[Helter Skelter]

sub is losing his reset in a patch. ex GF will be the same as normal freeze now in that the opponent will be able to escape by staying at neutral.

sub needs the buff the colt mentioned, he could use a 4%-5% damage buff overall.

he needs a buff, trust me... I WOULD KNOW BETTER THAN MOST!

Fair play, however I've asked you on the STBL show if you thought characters like Stryker and Mileena needed anything changed and you were pretty adamant that they're completely fine and changes were not necessary. Even though you rank these two characters underneath Sub-Zero and mentioning that Sub Zero was amongst the top tier characters.

You have also said that a character like Jax will never be able to win a major tournament.

So with all that said, why is it that Sub Zero a character you have gone on the record to say is already S tier needs a buff, but all the other characters that are clearly not as good as him don't get mentioned at all or you believe haven't been played to their potential?

Are you saying that the better characters (by your approximation) need to buffed before the lesser characters to be viable? Kinda mad if you ask me and I have to agree with the general point that REO was getting at about Baraka.

 

[Marcus]

Im kina confused right here...

So the new BnB reset will now be gone?

 

[Nick T.]

@Mech:

I agree with you. Tom just wants armor and buffs so he can fight all the matchups he has trouble with instead of finding ways around it.

 

[Kickzilla]

when is this patch?

 

[Gameninja521]

Im kina confused right here...

So the new BnB reset will now be gone?

Yes.

 

[Marcus]

Yes.

 

[ManjoumeThunder]

I personally think it's stupid. I mean Goodie for Tom. It's cool that his character is getting what he wants him to have to compete.

If NRS is taking orders for what we want from our mains, I'd personally like for Cyrax' Buzzsaw to be an anti-air, Mileena's Roll to hit low, and Jade's EN Glow to last an extra second.
And no, I don't think any of those are any more ridiculous than what's going on here.

Where's the Sindel buff. There's your character that needs a buff.

lol You can't be serious? Does Cyrax really need another tool? He'll still have 50+ combos, which any character would like to have (pretty sure not everyone can do that). Jade's en Glow last another second? People would flock to her, and make her braindead. Mileena's Roll being low is just unnecessary. High/low is overrated, and isn't how MK is won.

My inner troll wants Sektor's stance to leave, so his overhead will be a normal. lol

Seriously, Sub will need more than Slide to make him able to compete with the Super characters, though this might be different after said patch.

 

[TheChad_87]

lol You can't be serious? Does Cyrax really need another tool? He'll still have 50+ combos, which any character would like to have (pretty sure not everyone can do that). Jade's en Glow last another second? People would flock to her, and make her braindead. Mileena's Roll being low is just unnecessary. High/low is overrated, and isn't how MK is won.

My inner troll wants Sektor's stance to leave, so his overhead will be a normal. lol

Seriously, Sub will need more than Slide to make him able to compete with the Super characters, though this might be different after said patch.

Of course I'm serious! ... and don't call me Shirley!

Once again, I was being facetious. Just pointing out that it's ridiculous for someone who plays the character (and wins) to get to decide his nerfs/buffs. None of those characters need any of that and SubZ doesn't need this. Just because TB likes him doesn't mean he has to be S tier.

I'm sure DanCock has PLENTY of changes he's like to see for Sindel (all of which would affect game balance much less than this), but you don't see NRS jumping on that.

 

[ManjoumeThunder]

Of course I'm serious! ... and don't call me Shirley!

Once again, I was being facetious. Just pointing out that it's ridiculous for someone who plays the character (and wins) to get to decide his nerfs/buffs. None of those characters need any of that and SubZ doesn't need this. Just because TB likes him doesn't mean he has to be S tier.

I'm sure DanCock has PLENTY of changes he's like to see for Sindel (all of which would affect game balance much less than this), but you don't see NRS jumping on that.

Fair enough. I don't think Tom has final say about what buffs/nerfs that any one gets unless its widespread, like Kung Lao (originally) damage was or Cyrax damage is now. Oh, and on the Silent1 show, Tom said if NRS took away Sub's reset (which they are), he'd never forgive them.

Oh yeah, watch out for Nightwolf, since Tom said he's going to try him in Kenshi's stead. (Not sure what Nightwolf would need, if anything, his En ram thing already has armor).

I dunno how Sindel is, she could need nerfs for all I know, so I'll grant you that as well.

 

[Mechacide]

Turns out that actually any character with a 6F d+1 or d+3 (or any 6F move) can interrupt Sub's 2,1,2. However, there are mixup options for it, and I believe they have to interrupt on anticipation of you completing the string, not on reaction. And besides, 2,1 xx Clone leaves the Clone nice and close to the opp, it's just that the Slide shenanigans won't work.

 

[zee]

Turns out that actually any character with a 6F d+1 or d+3 (or any 6F move) can interrupt Sub's 2,1,2. However, there are mixup options for it, and I believe they have to interrupt on anticipation of you completing the string, not on reaction. And besides, 2,1 xx Clone leaves the Clone nice and close to the opp, it's just that the Slide shenanigans won't work.

Reptile can dash out of it? This is getting ridiculous. I realize he would have to dash in anticipation and could get caught by a 21~Clone, so at least that's something.

IMO, 22 should be 0 on block, or 212/214 should not be interrupted. I would really prefer one of these and a couple extra damage % over any Slide buffs.

 

[salvificblood]

Sub does need a damage buff now that they're removing his reset. He should be doing mid-high 30's off a jip, 22 starter. I am now convinced the scaling after a freeze seriously needs to be reconsidered. It's complete garbage that you can trade projectiles with characters like Reptile and get absolutely zero damage, then, when you do eventually tag him outside of a trade, you only get 20%. Surely, surely that must change for the sake of balance?

Time to start counterpicking Reptile with Liu Kang until they do something to help Sub with this matchup. It feels almost unwinnable for Sub with the way Reptile is being played now.

 

[Mechacide]

Reptile can dash out of it? This is getting ridiculous. I realize he would have to dash in anticipation and could get caught by a 21~Clone, so at least that's something.

IMO, 22 should be 0 on block, or 212/214 should not be interrupted. I would really prefer one of these and a couple extra damage % over any Slide buffs.

I said that Reptile's Dash can interrupt it in the OP : S

It should be interruptible, because it's such a powerful tool. Just mix it up with d+pokes, 2,1 xx Clone, and 2,1 xx Slide etc.

As for the match-up with Reptile: How is it in Reptile's favour? Your Clone forces him to zone, but then you can trade with him (at the right range or with the right timing) and get decent dmg while pushing him to the corner. Once he's in the corner, there's almost nothing he can do to get out. Not to mention once you have XR you shut off all of his options at once, whereas his XR won't work against your Ice Balls while you have a Clone out (with the correct spacing). I see nothing in this match-up that puts it into Reptile's favour, because he has no choice but to fight on Sub-Zero's terms.

 

[Lyuben]

I said that Reptile's Dash can interrupt it in the OP : S

It should be interruptible, because it's such a powerful tool. Just mix it up with d+pokes, 2,1 xx Clone, and 2,1 xx Slide etc.

As for the match-up with Reptile: How is it in Reptile's favour? Your Clone forces him to zone, but then you can trade with him (at the right range or with the right timing) and get decent dmg while pushing him to the corner. Once he's in the corner, there's almost nothing he can do to get out. Not to mention once you have XR you shut off all of his options at once, whereas his XR won't work against your Ice Balls while you have a Clone out (with the correct spacing). I see nothing in this match-up that puts it into Reptile's favour, because he has no choice but to fight on Sub-Zero's terms.

Have to agree.

The match up revolves around putting reptile in the corner. Once you do so it is a win pretty much. And in the match up sub-zero can shut down one of Reptiles most powerful moves- the dash. This is also a match up where I feel you need to use icebeam. It ensures that a trade of forceball with the beam will be totally in your favour and you are not forced to risk a slide or doing no damage at all.

 

[salvificblood]

I said that Reptile's Dash can interrupt it in the OP : S

It should be interruptible, because it's such a powerful tool. Just mix it up with d+pokes, 2,1 xx Clone, and 2,1 xx Slide etc.

As for the match-up with Reptile: How is it in Reptile's favour? Your Clone forces him to zone, but then you can trade with him (at the right range or with the right timing) and get decent dmg while pushing him to the corner. Once he's in the corner, there's almost nothing he can do to get out. Not to mention once you have XR you shut off all of his options at once, whereas his XR won't work against your Ice Balls while you have a Clone out (with the correct spacing). I see nothing in this match-up that puts it into Reptile's favour, because he has no choice but to fight on Sub-Zero's terms.

A good reptile doesn't throw stuff at you when you're at that kind of range, and if you want to cut off his mobility, you have to stand within the range of his dash. You cannot get favourable trades from that sort of range, either, so Reptile can always win the fireball war against you simply because he takes so much life off you in trades and from chip damage. Once he gets in with a forceball behind him, he also does a tonne of chip damage again, or simply does more damage to you than you can do to him off his staple combos. I actually think this matchup is a 3-7. It's horrible for Sub-Zero.

Sub-Zero's ice clone is his only saving grace in this matchup. It stops the tidal wave of pressure, but you have to be so careful with your spacing all the while avoiding forceballs, just to get ice clones on the screen consistently.

 

[Mechacide]

Ice Clone is i2, Dash is i6. It doesn't matter that you have to get into range of Dash to cut it off, just time it well. You can always get in and use a block-string into Ice Clone, anyway. If he tries to Forceball from there, you can jump over.

Just keep placing Clones, slightly farther forward than the last each time. Slowly push him to the corner, and he's basically done. If he's not throwing out Forceballs because you're at the right range to trade, what's the issue? Throw ice and build meter, and stay in that range to shut off his options. If you're having trouble getting him to the corner by pushing him there, you can always pull him towards the other corner (basically cornering yourself) and then cross him up. That's if you're confident you can get out of the corner easily against the other player.

Sub can shut off all of Reptile's options. Reptile can't shut off any of Sub's, really.

 

[Bidu]

I call it the Obama kick

even though it's unsafe I use it... ohhhhh... about 50% of the time against every character for wakeup pressure

EDIT: if you can imagine the president doing an iceball after that kick, then you pretty much have seen my sub-zero

Definitly safe against the large majority of the MK9 cast if you're poping Ice Clone in combo with it.

 

[Bidu]

ermac is fine as is, cyrax will be able to do over 50% still just not in the 70's-90's, the only nerf KL needs is no pushback on spin.

No character is fine when they can drop 41-43% of your HP at midscrenn without the use of a single enchanced bar, Tom. SPECIALLY Someone as good at zonning like Ermac.

That's my opinion.