General/Other The Killing Art of Sub-Zero - Why He Needs ZERO Buffs

[salvificblood]

Well said King. I would def. accept the pre-patch damage with open arms.

This or he should build meter slightly faster than he currently does. Either buff would have to be slight and he shouldn't have both.

 

[salvificblood]

Thinking about it, I don't think Sub-Zero needs anything else now. I think his damage and meter game is fine. Sub-Zero does huge damage with his reset in the corner and he already has great wall carry for a solid 30% from midscreen and the wall carry part is the thing that gets overlooked. This is sometimes the case because people are trying to use different combo enders like b121. Plus, as we all know, his Xray shuts down a lot of his opponent's options. This is why I think Sub-Zero players need to have really good meter management and stop burning through it so fast. Sub is not a meter building monster. If Jade is all about having meter, I think Sub-Zero is just as much, too. It's taken me a long time to see why this is the case for him. In a strange way, Sub will be better off for losing his ex groundfreeze reset just because he's not trying to use less than optimal strings or burning through meter only to see his opponent breaker out. His slide buffs will make it so that Sub can bring his offense to the table more in his toughest matchups. That's really all he ever needed.

 

[Creepy00]

Well been confirm, Sub is getting armor on his Ex slide but reset getting removed

 

[Gurrry]

I dont think Sub needs buffs or nerfs at this moment. MK is the most balanced fighter out right now. Each character has a chance to win a major if the player is at the top of his game.

Having said that, the only "buff" id give is that Id make some of the strings like 1,3,F4 actually be worth a shit. I think its pointless to have strings for characters that are completely useless. Obviously, Sub doesnt NEED this string to be successful... its more of just a personal gripe on my part. I feel like all strings should have a purpose.. and currently.. each character has a few that are straight up pointless.

Why even give it to us in the first place if it is meant to never be used?

 

[silva_777]

we are so spoiled,... we dont want buffs and still they give them to us. Me happy

 

[MagicMan357]

If you do subs corner combos in certain variations you will understand why people like me would like him to get a damage buff, i really hate in games when you put in work and dont get shit for it :/

 

[salvificblood]

If you do subs corner combos in certain variations you will understand why people like me would like him to get a damage buff, i really hate in games when you put in work and dont get shit for it :/

His corner damage is fine, especially off his b2 setups. I would say reduce the scaling after naked freezes and ice clone traps because there's no reason he shouldn't get 30% after either. I mean, It's harder to catch people with clone traps that it is to come in and d4 into 22 and 21 pressure, especially when so much of the cast actually run away form Sub-Zero and go nowhere near his ice clone.

However, due to the fact he now has armour on ex slide, any talk of a damage buff is too much. The armour on ex slide just makes his already good matchups a little better but doesn't really change his bad matchups unless the clone doesn't disappear when the armour absorbs a hit. This would give him more clone setups midscreen but I fully expect the clone to disappear as soon as the armour absorbs a hit, which is really pointless since the ex slide will just knock them back to a range they can start zoning from again.

I would have taken the damage buff I mentioned over the ex slide receiving armour.

 

[Massicus]

Well been confirm, Sub is getting armor on his Ex slide but reset getting removed

YES
I'm having so much trouble with Lui Kang low fireballs (and his almost fullscreen kick-move when you jump)/1 Jade player who would batarang me to death/build meter that way.

 

[NRF CharlieMurphy]

His corner damage is fine, especially off his b2 setups. I would say reduce the scaling after naked freezes and ice clone traps because there's no reason he shouldn't get 30% after either. I mean, It's harder to catch people with clone traps that it is to come in and d4 into 22 and 21 pressure, especially when so much of the cast actually run away form Sub-Zero and go nowhere near his ice clone.

However, due to the fact he now has armour on ex slide, any talk of a damage buff is too much. The armour on ex slide just makes his already good matchups a little better but doesn't really change his bad matchups unless the clone doesn't disappear when the armour absorbs a hit. This would give him more clone setups midscreen but I fully expect the clone to disappear as soon as the armour absorbs a hit, which is really pointless since the ex slide will just knock them back to a range they can start zoning from again.

I would have taken the damage buff I mentioned over the ex slide receiving armour.

I'd like pre-patch damage as well. Sub has plenty of ways to get around zoning as is.... just watch Tom's sub against Mike's Kabal ... or his match against Kenshi.
I know I get zoned out... but it is because of my impatience... not because the character can't get around it.
I would wonder how much the b2 reset stuff would net without scaling.

 

[salvificblood]

YES
I'm having so much trouble with Lui Kang low fireballs (and his almost fullscreen kick-move when you jump)/1 Jade player who would batarang me to death/build meter that way.

Against Liu Kang just block low. When you successfully block a low fireball, put your iceball on the screen so if he tries to spam you, he will get frozen. Good players know how zoning advantage works, but you can get trades with bad players easily like this. It's also easy to trade against Jade; she has a lot of recovery on her boomerangs. If she's using glow a lot, you have to play quite aggressively against her because she can walk through your clones and iceballs.

The ex slide won't solve either problem here because you're using 1 bar of meter to get around zoning you can get around without it, to be honest. I think the ex slide will be best used to escape pressure and reverse corner situations. It'll also be useful against Cyrax if he's catching you with bombs and nets because you will be able to ex slide on reaction to the net to get out of danger.

 

[Name v.5.0]

His corner pressure is insane. Any character who doesn't have a teleport is pretty much forced into a horrific unfavourable guessing game until they find an opening, which doesn't come often.

Therein lies the problem. There majority of the people I fight against have some sort of teleport or across the screen avoidance measure. Think about it. CSZ, Cyrax, Ermac, Freddy, Jade, Kitana, Kenshi (he just dont give a fuck about clones), Kung Lao, Noob, Quan Chi, Raiden, Rain, Scorpion, Sector, and Smoke all have easy outs. And other characters will have an EX move to bust out of the corner. I think Subs corner game is amazing, dont get me wrong, but it's not even close to bullet proof.

 

[Mechacide]

Therein lies the problem. There majority of the people I fight against have some sort of teleport or across the screen avoidance measure. Think about it. CSZ, Cyrax, Ermac, Freddy, Jade, Kitana, Kenshi (he just dont give a fuck about clones), Kung Lao, Noob, Quan Chi, Raiden, Rain, Scorpion, Sector, and Smoke all have easy outs. And other characters will have an EX move to bust out of the corner. I think Subs corner game is amazing, dont get me wrong, but it's not even close to bullet proof.

Out of the characters you listed, only Ermac, Raiden and Kenshi are really hard to pressure in the corner. Some of the others make it a little tricky, but you always have an answer. I wasn't including Rain or Freddy in my statement, though, because I don't know enough about them.

 

[NRF CharlieMurphy]

Therein lies the problem. There majority of the people I fight against have some sort of teleport or across the screen avoidance measure. Think about it. CSZ, Cyrax, Ermac, Freddy, Jade, Kitana, Kenshi (he just dont give a fuck about clones), Kung Lao, Noob, Quan Chi, Raiden, Rain, Scorpion, Sector, and Smoke all have easy outs. And other characters will have an EX move to bust out of the corner. I think Subs corner game is amazing, dont get me wrong, but it's not even close to bullet proof.

your list is laughable. Teleports aren't easy outs by any means.

 

[Name v.5.0]

Out of the characters you listed, only Ermac, Raiden and Kenshi are really hard to pressure in the corner. Some of the others make it a little tricky, but you always have an answer. I wasn't including Rain or Freddy in my statement, though, because I don't know enough about them.

Kitana can easily square wave out. Jade can go invincible for christ's sake. Kung can spin or jump and dive kick over you.

your list is laughable. Teleports aren't easy outs by any means.

Probably shouldnt have said "easy outs". They are outs though. And the characters in my list can get out with little to no damage if the person playing them is decent.

 

[MagicMan357]

im gonna have to go with what altaire said earlier, because that makes perfect sense

Sub is a fortress character, why cant he get the damage like EZmac even the SUb actually has to work for his combos?

 

[Mechacide]

Kitana can easily square wave out. Jade can go invincible for christ's sake. Kung can spin or jump and dive kick over you.

(2),2 deals with a lot of that. It'll pull Kitana out of the air and into your Clone if you have one up, and it isn't affected by Kung's Spin. Another way to deal with Kitana is to use EX Slide in anticipation of her landing from her Squarewave, to push her back into the corner. Or if you like, you can set up the Clone in the air to prevent the Squarewave, and then pressure her the good ol' fashioned way.

Jade's Invincibility is good, yeah, but it requires meter, so it won't last forever. Her non-EX version can be hit by any of your normals.

 

[grandabx]

subz is missing something to be a complete character. i feel ice clone (and subz in general) is one-dimensional. he needs a forward-moving version where he hops forward a leaves a clone behind to keep teleporting honest. ex-clone could make the clone a bit larger than normal. slightly speed up groundfreeze and give it a little more range. this gives him a little mindgame between both projectiles. groundfreeze is USELESS in it's current form. it takes away from subz' TRUE potential.