General/Other - Scorpion The Current Scorpion problems in general

[xWildx]

The only problem I see Scorpion having is his mains not knowing what costume to pick.

 

[Scoot Magee]

@Redk9
I'm going to admit to totally being wrong about FB canceling early from 2,1. If you're planning on eating the last hit you can just let go of block and press a button. If I finish the string they'll get hit and if I cancel it early it will poke me out or worse.

 

[Scoot Magee]

While people are blowing Scorpion WAY out of proportion for what's in this game. His only REAL flaws are needing meter to be safe (which is just balance, not a problem), and his Wake-ups suck... Which I'll take as a trade off for solid damage off his pressure and 50/50s. I don't think he should be nerfed at all because as time progresses, I feel if he gets buffed, he could easily end up broken. As he is, I'm just happy he is where he is and wanna leave it at that.


And how are you people seemingly saying you get away with J3 teleport? Play against people who don't suck offline. Because that has gonna be some lag abuse. Fuckin just jumping (get AA'd) into an unsafe as fuck teleport (god help you if they decided to just block since it's not like you had many options after that)....

Why do his wakeups suck? Is it because you can jump to avoid and punish both or can he be consistently hit out of them when getting up?

 

[Eddy Wang]

What low profile moves are you having trouble with? Scorpion's D3, D4, and F2 are so good that almost no one attempts to low profile him at all at least from my experience in over 1000's of games. The few who did quickly stopped after I peppered them with B121 a couple of times.

F2 can be stuffed out by low profile moves
D3 sometimes is to slow to fight low profiles
D4 is way slower

You get locked in the corner being frame trapped, your opponent is mostly like to mash D1, or D3, since those moves are now low profile and are way less negative than it was in MK9, it nulls all your options to retaliate on your own.

Using reversal takedown is slow
using armored takedown puts you negative on block or hit at cost of meter, there is a risk of you getting baited into that
ex tele on works as wakeup
you can't jump when you get hit
you can use a combo to punish someone mashing because all your normals hit high
You want to counter poke, but the window is so thigh that either you will get stuffed, or you will get grabbed
You want to stuff with B12 to get a full combo punish, but is 11f with a directional input and has t-rex arms, chances are either your B1 hits before their hitbox reaches B1 active frames, or to trade

No one in this game will low profile cage, F3 is 11 frame but hits mid, that grants him a full combo punish there is always the fear of getting hit by that due the range it covers, and he has a armored launcher
No one in this game will low profile cassie, get away flip is 6 frames, it keeps them in check and launches
... ... ... ... ... kung lao because, yada yada yada, you get the idea.

The problem is, you know they will low profile, all you can do instead of punish is running away on the opposite direction which in return you're just locking yourself up in the corner giving him more position advantage.

 

[BloodyNights]

F2 can be stuffed out by low profile moves
D3 sometimes is to slow to fight low profiles
D4 is way slower

You get locked in the corner being frame trapped, your opponent is mostly like to mash D1, or D3, since those moves are now low profile and are way less negative than it was in MK9, it nulls all your options to retaliate on your own.

Using reversal takedown is slow
using armored takedown puts you negative on block or hit at cost of meter, there is a risk of you getting baited into that
ex tele on works as wakeup
you can't jump when you get hit
you can use a combo to punish someone mashing because all your normals hit high
You want to counter poke, but the window is so thigh that either you will get stuffed, or you will get grabbed
You want to stuff with B12 to get a full combo punish, but is 11f with a directional input and has t-rex arms, chances are either your B1 hits before their hitbox reaches B1 active frames, or to trade

No one in this game will low profile cage, F3 is 11 frame but hits mid, that grants him a full combo punish there is always the fear of getting hit by that due the range it covers, and he has a armored launcher
No one in this game will low profile cassie, get away flip is 6 frames, it keeps them in check and launches
... ... ... ... ... kung lao because, yada yada yada, you get the idea.

The problem is, you know they will low profile, all you can do instead of punish is running away on the opposite direction which in return you're just locking yourself up in the corner giving him more position advantage.

I don't have that problem even against really good players. I know the ranges of when to use my attacks, and if I really need a quick get off me move I'll d1, it's 6 frame start up, and that's if they are low profiling. D4 is god in neutral. And F2 is only after you've poked at them enough times with low strikes And it also works both ways, it may get stuffed by some lows, but it also will hop over some lows at the same time, and it's not much of a punish at all if it does get poked out. I'm not kidding when I said I've got thousands of games, both online and offline. No ones crazy enough to low profile me more than once or twice especially after I make it clear that I won't let them do it.

 

[Scoot Magee]

@Redk9
I assumed you were correct about EX spear whiffing on neutral crouch because a raw EX spear whiffs on crouch normally and I've never seen anyone try to make it whiff during a string. You can not make EX spear whiff in 214 so if you let go of block it will hit. I just tested it on a few characters ranging from big to small. Have you actually seen EX spear whiff after 214?

 

[Eddy Wang]

I don't have that problem even against really good players. I know the ranges of when to use my attacks, and if I really need a quick get off me move I'll d1, it's 6 frame start up, and that's if they are low profiling. D4 is god in neutral. And F2 is only after you've poked at them enough times with low strikes And it also works both ways, it may get stuffed by some lows, but it also will hop over some lows at the same time, and it's not much of a punish at all if it does get poked out. I'm not kidding when I said I've got thousands of games, both online and offline. No ones crazy enough to low profile me more than once or twice especially after I make it clear that I won't let them do it.

I'll see what i can cook then.

 

[Scoot Magee]

As a matter of fact if you let go of block at the end of any string that's canceled into EX spear it will hit.

 

[BloodyNights]

As a matter of fact if you let go of block at the end of any string that's canceled into EX spear it will hit.

This is false, opponents have ducked F4>EX spear and B3>EX Spear on more than one occasion. Luckily, I've gotten to the point that I can hit confirm F4 into spear

 

[G4S Silent Jay]

Why do his wakeups suck? Is it because you can jump to avoid and punish both or can he be consistently hit out of them when getting up?

Realistically it's because the armor comes out so late, that if you go for it, you can be very easily stuffed. Ran into the same problem when I tried playing Takeda. It's not a problem that ONLY Scorpion has, but you just run into a lot of trouble once you're on the ground.

So to me anyway, it's the trade-off he takes for what he can do to characters with his "vortex" (yes, I call it a "vortex" when the 50/50 is a 16f Low and a 23f OH that people WILL learn to block readily as time goes on) which does good damage and can be made safe for a bar.

Right now Scorpion seems better than he is as a whole because people still need to learn match-ups and such. And a lot of people are getting their experience form online, which is still a garbage way to get any practice in.

I think Inferno and Hellfire Scorpion are both really good. But at the same time balanced as is for this game, and just would really hate to see nerfs over people refusing to learn a Match-Up.

 

[Scoot Magee]

This is false, opponents have ducked F4>EX spear and B3>EX Spear on more than one occasion. Luckily, I've gotten to the point that I can hit confirm F4 on hit.

Good call on that. I was only testing full strings though. Still it's a pretty big deal that it can't be crouched after 214.

 

[BloodyNights]

Good call on that. I was only testing full strings though. Still it's a pretty big deal that it can't be crouched after 214.

I don't know why anyone would use 214 into EX spear, as that string is super hit confirmable, I haven't tested this myself, because usually teleport or mid demon is what I use during this string.

 

[Scoot Magee]

Realistically it's because the armor comes out so late, that if you go for it, you can be very easily stuffed. Ran into the same problem when I tried playing Takeda. It's not a problem that ONLY Scorpion has, but you just run into a lot of trouble once you're on the ground.

So to me anyway, it's the trade-off he takes for what he can do to characters with his "vortex" (yes, I call it a "vortex" when the 50/50 is a 16f Low and a 23f OH that people WILL learn to block readily as time goes on) which does good damage and can be made safe for a bar.

Right now Scorpion seems better than he is as a whole because people still need to learn match-ups and such. And a lot of people are getting their experience form online, which is still a garbage way to get any practice in.

I think Inferno and Hellfire Scorpion are both really good. But at the same time balanced as is for this game, and just would really hate to see nerfs over people refusing to learn a Match-Up.

I agree 100% about the nerf situation. It happens way to often and Scorpion is totally manageable when you know the match.

On the wake up situation. Do you have any specific examples of moves that are good at stuffing the EX tele? I play against a good KJ player a lot and he wasn't able to stuff my wakeup tele with f3 but it worked on the takedown. I just want to know what to look for.

 

[Scoot Magee]

I don't know why anyone would use 214 into EX spear, as that string is super hit confirmable, I haven't tested this myself, because usually teleport or mid demon is what I use during this string.

Well it's a counter to when somebody eats the last hit of the 214 fbc pressure in order to escape it. A lot of players are letting go of block on the last hit to not have to deal with all the chip damage. You can safely throw out an EX spear if you think they'll let go which gives them more incentive to block.

It was argued by @Redk9 earlier that if you let go of block after 214 on a read of an EX spear that the EX spear will whiff and allow a full combo punish. This is not true as the EX spear actually hits if they let go which narrows down their options to blocking or eating the last hit.

 

[G4S Silent Jay]

I agree 100% about the nerf situation. It happens way to often and Scorpion is totally manageable when you know the match.

On the wake up situation. Do you have any specific examples of moves that are good at stuffing the EX tele? I play against a good KJ player a lot and he wasn't able to stuff my wakeup tele with f3 but it worked on the takedown. I just want to know what to look for.

From my experiences, literally any button that Jax throws out. If they time it right, any move can stuff it because the armor comes out late, so you can be hit out of the early parts of the start up before the armor kicks in. So in most situations, on knock-down, I generally have to hold whatever's coming next form my training partner, as he is VERY aware of this. But them just crouch blocking will also shit on any Wake-Up except EX spear because -5 is as safe as his specials get.

 

[Scoot Magee]

From my experiences, literally any button that Jax throws out. If they time it right, any move can stuff it because the armor comes out late, so you can be hit out of the early parts of the start up before the armor kicks in. So in most situations, on knock-down, I generally have to hold whatever's coming next form my training partner, as he is VERY aware of this. But them just crouch blocking will also shit on any Wake-Up except EX spear because -5 is as safe as his specials get.

Can you get a punish if you use delayed wake up? Sounds pretty nuts though, I'll look into it so I'm not caught with my pants down next tournament lol. Thanks.

 

[Tony at Home]

"-10 against Scorpion is 0"

Not really. Low poke punish, use that to turn low block advantage into very high hit advantage. Then start better pressure from there.

 

[G4S Silent Jay]

Can you get a punish if you use delayed wake up? Sounds pretty nuts though, I'll look into it so I'm not caught with my pants down next tournament lol. Thanks.

I haven't had luck with it. Usually just stuffed out of the Wake-Up still. But might just need to work on it or something.

 

[Scoot Magee]

It's the fact that he doesn't even need to use meter to get like 40 percent damage to then lead into another vortex that is disgusting. Also the fact that he can check you at full screen to full combo you into a vortex is dumb. If he was at least forced to use meter to get his shenanigans going then I could deal with that. It's just annoying that you open one of these guys up and they already got meter to break anyways.

But in order to keep the vortex going with a high and low option you're forced to use F4 which is too slow to be viable. It might work online but any good player is going to block it on reaction offline. Once F4 is consistently blocked, interrupted and punished people will be forced to use F2 as an overhead option which knocks down and ends the vortex. F4 and B3 is not a 50/50.

Inferno is his most unsafe variation of all and IMO is nowhere near as strong as people think. Good blocking in general hurts inferno badly.

 

[Scoot Magee]

Ninjutsu isin't good

I disagree with this. I've found Ninjitsu to be very useful in a lot of situations.

 

[OutworldKeith]

That's the one thing I noticed. Haven't played vs him much, but labbed him a bit, and outside of Ninjutsu b2/f2, there wasn't much in terms of range.

I think that's fine.

If you're getting blown up by full-screen Low Demon, that's your problem.... That's like not jumping Hellfire in INJ... Except this you can block...

This post right here!

 

[STRYKIE]

Please....you can't compare mk9 scorpion to mkx one.

Well you're ironically correct actually, Scorpion's overhead in this game is trash. 25f startup, doesn't jail into anything on block safely, I'm already using it more and more for it's meaty frames and less of a mix-u.....

It's the fact that he doesn't even need to use meter to get like 40 percent damage to then lead into another vortex that is disgusting. Also the fact that he can check you at full screen to full combo you into a vortex is dumb. If he was at least forced to use meter to get his shenanigans going then I could deal with that. It's just annoying that you open one of these guys up and they already got meter to break anyways.

Wait, so you're salty about Inferno?

Nevermind then, continue your tears.

 

[Wigy]

Kung Lao had a 6f mid hitting special with over 60 active frames, no one would dare to low profile KL in MK9 without fearing the spin

Really? I'm sure you used to be top level, i heard every top player saying this was his #1 weakness, people can poke and uppercut out of all his pressure. PL who was probably the best mk9 lao made a whole thread about it.

Just like everybody else i think your suggestions are stupid b2 might have steep scaling but its probably more consistent and safer than a jk as those will easily trade. The scaling might be sucky but you just stopped and JIP and u now have a vortex. This is like a cassie main complaining their projectile sucks, your character cant have everything, thats not how it works

Also you said his wakeup game sucks.. Its above average, at least he has options some characters have to just sit and eat cassie cages dick all day.

 

[Redk9]

@Redk9
I assumed you were correct about EX spear whiffing on neutral crouch because a raw EX spear whiffs on crouch normally and I've never seen anyone try to make it whiff during a string. You can not make EX spear whiff in 214 so if you let go of block it will hit. I just tested it on a few characters ranging from big to small. Have you actually seen EX spear whiff after 214?

Thats my bad. I haven't tested that, but I honestly should have realized 214 wouldn't have the same functionality as f4 and b3.

 

[ciaran carrick]

Please....you can't compare mk9 scorpion to mkx one.

You can't compare any of the MKX characters to MK9.