Tech - Sub-Zero Testing Sub-Zero's safety by Tom Brady

[A2EZ]

then why is Sub using a bar to make things safe and potentially trick the opponent into wasting a bar and even getting punished for it such a bad thing?

To put it really simply, doing that requires you to play around their pace, and the one who sets the pace in a fighting game (or any game) is in a position of power.

 

[Rabid Justice]

After playing around in practice with kahn vs sub grand master. I found you can make the ice clone lose its hit box by timing a jump in attack to hit at about the same time as sub blocks it. Jump 2 works the best.
Tested out of block string in to ice clone with sub.
Iv gotten it down to about every 4 out of 5 times.

 

[shoshinsha]

So basically what I learned is that I can punish Sub-zero's clone 3 times using full meter, and then I'm screwed for the other 83723823893883 he will do in the match.

Cool.

Also I should pick up Kung Lao to use his 4 frame spin to punish the strings.

Got it.

Let me get this straight: you let yourself get cornered FOUR times by a Sub-Zero who FOUR times gets you into a block string canceled into clone that you have to armor through to punish, all in a single match, and all before you can build a single additional bar of meter, and you think it's UNFAIR that you lose?

 

[JDM]

Who the fuck snoring in the background son

 

[M.D.]

Let me get this straight: you let yourself get cornered FOUR times by a Sub-Zero who FOUR times gets you into a block string canceled into clone that you have to armor through to punish, all in a single match, and all before you can build a single additional bar of meter, and you think it's UNFAIR that you lose?

No, what I was saying was that:

1. Please NEVER, EVER, prove something is unsafe using Kung Lao's spin. Please. I think I don't even have to elaborate on this one but I'll do it just in case. Not everyone uses Kung Lao. Thinking that I should pick up Kung Lao just to punish a character is retarded.
A good example of retarded was a long time ago in MK9, someone "proving" that you can interupt Raiden's strings, and how easy it was that anyone could do it. And when I watch the video, he was doing it with Kung Lao's spin. LOL rly? Goobypls.

2. One bar of meter >armored< move =/= punish. Sorry. A punish is something you should be able to do consistently. A good example is Ferra/Torr's boss toss on clone. That's a punish.

I never said nerf his clone, since I have no problems against it because I use Vicious Ferra/Torr and Mimic Johnny, which both have meterless moves that punish clone on reaction. But I don't agree with the arguments, that's all.

 

[JDM]

No, what I was saying was that:

1. Please NEVER, EVER, prove something is unsafe using Kung Lao's spin. Please. I think I don't even have to elaborate on this one but I'll do it just in case. Not everyone uses Kung Lao. Thinking that I should pick up Kung Lao just to punish a character is retarded.
A good example of retarded was a long time ago in MK9, someone "proving" that you can interupt Raiden's strings, and how easy it was that anyone could do it. And when I watch the video, he was doing it with Kung Lao's spin. LOL rly? Goobypls.

2. One bar of meter >armored< move =/= punish. Sorry. A punish is something you should be able to do consistently. A good example is Ferra/Torr's boss toss on clone. That's a punish.

I never said nerf his clone, since I have no problems against it because I use Vicious Ferra/Torr and Mimic Johnny, which both have meterless moves that punish clone on reaction. But I don't agree with the arguments, that's all.

Same. It's the same thing with the deathstroke argument in Injustice.

You CAN do all these things if they do x and you do y but it doesn't necessarily happen like that in a real match. Also some of these punishes are laughable, Kitana gets like 11 percent for one bar of meter IF she reads him correctly, if he hits her once she gets put into a 30 percent combo right back into the BS.

Also not saying nerf Sub Zero. Kenshi handles him very well, so I'm not worried. But he will likely be nerfed since a big portion of the cast can't really full combo punish him with OR without meter. Some can, and the ones that can probably roll sub (like Stunt Double cage or Kenshi) but you know how this community is. Whine whine whine.

 

[shoshinsha]

No, what I was saying was that:

1. Please NEVER, EVER, prove something is unsafe using Kung Lao's spin. Please. I think I don't even have to elaborate on this one but I'll do it just in case. Not everyone uses Kung Lao. Thinking that I should pick up Kung Lao just to punish a character is retarded.
A good example of retarded was a long time ago in MK9, someone "proving" that you can interupt Raiden's strings, and how easy it was that anyone could do it. And when I watch the video, he was doing it with Kung Lao's spin. LOL rly? Goobypls.

2. One bar of meter >armored< move =/= punish. Sorry. A punish is something you should be able to do consistently. A good example is Ferra/Torr's boss toss on clone. That's a punish.

I never said nerf his clone, since I have no problems against it because I use Vicious Ferra/Torr and Mimic Johnny, which both have meterless moves that punish clone on reaction. But I don't agree with the arguments, that's all.

Virtually every character in the game has an armored reversal to deal with clone. The fact that you have to have meter to do it (for some characters) is not really a big deal at all. You should be able to read the clone after a cornered block string EASILY, and spending one bar of meter to get out of a character's primary winning strategy is not unreasonable at all.

 

[snort]

This video proved nothing. Who's going to do those strings into clone on block and who's willing to spend a bar of meter to punish it if your ex has no launcher? Good sub's will use clone at mid to full screen and to trap you in the corner with.

 

[Audit]

This video proves it, Sub Zero sucks ass again. He should be normalized.

Spoiler

 

[OldSchool973]

Thanks, great video....now maybe people will stop the nonsense

 

[Rude]

It sounds to me that people want to get out of the thing that Grandmaster Sub is designed to do for free.

If your character can't punish clone, perhaps one would need to develop better footsies to not find themselves in the corner.

If a Sub player has you cornered and has been out playing you to put you in that position, shouldn't he be rewarded?

Plus, doesn't everyone have the universal option of block breaker? Its not perfect obviously but again, why do people want to get out of the corner for free?

 

[Absinthesize]

It sounds to me that people want to get out of the thing that Grandmaster Sub is designed to do for free.

If your character can't punish clone, perhaps one would need to develop better footsies to not find themselves in the corner.

If a Sub player has you cornered and has been out playing you to put you in that position, shouldn't he be rewarded?

Plus, doesn't everyone have the universal option of block breaker? Its not perfect obviously but again, why do people want to get out of the corner for free?

ya im pretty much just going to learn a second character aside from sub, one that can easily punish grandmaster. thinking teleporter possibly ermac.

 

[jasperWOLF]

Tom forgot one of the best counters of all, Spectral Ermac flying over the klone...wait

 

[onetrickpony]

TLDR: You HAVE options to punish clone and subz is not safe on everything, so stop bitching about it.

 

[WakeUp DP]

No, what I was saying was that:

1. Please NEVER, EVER, prove something is unsafe using Kung Lao's spin. Please. I think I don't even have to elaborate on this one but I'll do it just in case. Not everyone uses Kung Lao. Thinking that I should pick up Kung Lao just to punish a character is retarded.
A good example of retarded was a long time ago in MK9, someone "proving" that you can interupt Raiden's strings, and how easy it was that anyone could do it. And when I watch the video, he was doing it with Kung Lao's spin. LOL rly? Goobypls.

2. One bar of meter >armored< move =/= punish. Sorry. A punish is something you should be able to do consistently. A good example is Ferra/Torr's boss toss on clone. That's a punish.

I never said nerf his clone, since I have no problems against it because I use Vicious Ferra/Torr and Mimic Johnny, which both have meterless moves that punish clone on reaction. But I don't agree with the arguments, that's all.

Counter picking is part of adapting, if you dont want to then either stop crying or quit the game period.

 

[RM Jonnitti]

good find brady! glad that you shared this with us because i dont actually have a reliable way of playing the game right now so that saved me a lot of testing that i wouldn't have been able to do lol. good to know how to keep sub players in check if they just want to do string into clone all day and limit them to one option. still that one option is good but a lot of subs players right now are just doing any string into clone.

 

[M.D.]

Counter picking is part of adapting, if you dont want to then either stop crying or quit the game period.

Do I really need to explain how..... I can't find a non rude term to use here...this sounds?

Not all of us lose the bread at their mouth by losing at this game. Otherwise switching chars to solve a problem is still a problem. Also I can complain and play the game at the same time, nothing says they have to be exclusive.

And as a tldr to your post : no.

I'm going to assume that you didn't understand what i said. I don't feel sub is op, i just don't agree with the arguments in the video. And with what you said.

It's like you say mk9 cyrax is ok, kabal can beat him. Kabal in mk9 is ok, cyrax can beat him. Well no it's not ok at all. This is not DOTA where you can have imbalanced character matchups because you rely on counterpicking as a strategy.

 

[roosTakk]

In 6 -12 months time we will look back and see how wrong everyone was about everything....cant wait

 

[Absinthesize]

Do I really need to explain how..... I can't find a non rude term to use here...this sounds?

Not all of us lose the bread at their mouth by losing at this game. Otherwise switching chars to solve a problem is still a problem. Also I can complain and play the game at the same time, nothing says they have to be exclusive.

And as a tldr to your post : no.

its rude but its accurate too.

grand master has a much harder time vs teleporters and characters that can no meter punish thru clone.

learn one of those, if someone pics subzero, just choose one of those. even if he ends up picking cyomancer you wind up more at a neutral then a plus for matchup. cyomancer fares better vs those types of characters soley because he doesnt rely on a klone gimmick. not because he has tools that allow him to freely punish those moves that punish klone use.

 

[M.D.]

I already have mains that have no problem with sub so again that was not the issue. I edited above what i meant.

 

[Absinthesize]

fair enough then! i dont know the competitive rules honestly. why is counterpicking not a strategy?

really you can have like...2 characters, learn there variations. so long as they cover eachother well you probably will be able to deal with most if not all the cast in some way.

subzeros combination of grandmaster/cyo is a great all around choice. just not vs other grandmasters.

i still have to learn grandmaster/unbreakable, been spending all my free time with cryo. but beyond that i do want to learn another character, probably one with a teleport (preferrably one with a base teleport, not a variation teleport). right now trying to decide between scorpion and ermac.

 

[M.D.]

Well isn't a ballanced game what we' re going for here? Having counterpicking as a strategy is like giving up ballance because you can work arround it.

 

[Absinthesize]

Well isn't a ballanced game what we' re going for here? Having counterpicking as a strategy is like giving up ballance because you can work arround it.

not sure if i agree to that. partialy because you will never have a balanced game. not unless its super simple like flipping a coin or rock paper scissors.

counterpicking in my opinion serves as a way to balance out the inevitable rough edges. you may have one character whose strong vs many matchups, but is weak vs a few...so why not learn a character that fares against them better.

the real wrinkle will be hidden variation picks and variations different enough to flip the table on that whole counterpicking thing.

 

[shad0ki11er 27]

so if Sub Zeros the best after the game has not been out for 2 weeks yet (Tom brady has a point and sub to me is jot the best) but then who are people saying is the worst character in the game??

 

[WakeUp DP]

Do I really need to explain how..... I can't find a non rude term to use here...this sounds?

Not all of us lose the bread at their mouth by losing at this game. Otherwise switching chars to solve a problem is still a problem. Also I can complain and play the game at the same time, nothing says they have to be exclusive.

And as a tldr to your post : no.

I'm going to assume that you didn't understand what i said. I don't feel sub is op, i just don't agree with the arguments in the video. And with what you said.

It's like you say mk9 cyrax is ok, kabal can beat him. Kabal in mk9 is ok, cyrax can beat him. Well no it's not ok at all. This is not DOTA where you can have imbalanced character matchups because you rely on counterpicking as a strategy.

If you are a casual and dont really mind losing enough to counter pick then what are you doing here crying for nerfs one week into the game?